More EU green madness, enforced retrofit?

[Hairy-Joe]

I was reading this article and I thought that it made sense for new builds

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2023/031 ... ndards-eu/

Then I get to this line

The energy rating of existing residential buildings will have to meet a minimum E rating by 2030 and gradually improve from there onwards.

There's going to be a lot of houses that will need a lot of money spent on them and won't have an economic payback. Sure my own case. A house build in early '80's (built to well in excess of the standards of the day). I priced a deep retrofit and the bill was north of €100k. As I've 30/40 years to live, it'll never pay for itself. I imagine that there are a lot of elderly people asset rich & cash poor who won't be able to afford it.

More EU green madness (in the same manner as the BEV ONLY future)

[isha]

Unless they fund me 100% of the cost they can go whistle. That's all.

[BrianD3]

Could be just the way RTE is reporting it - they are often very sloppy.

I'd suspect that this may be about existing buildings having to meet certain energy standards IF substantial works are carried out on them. Similar to the situation with building regs.

Mandatory retrofitting of existing dwellings at the owners' expense - best of luck with that. If they bring that in they're going to need plenty of lampposts - and not for illuminating anything.

[kadman]

They cant build a house, apartment, commercial premises to meet existing regulations , let alone new regs. The last retrofit was a joke with self certifying being common place, and engineers related to the contractors doing the work. Rip off Ireland alive and well. If they could not fit 10 rolls of fibregalls properly....then god help all the additional retrofit elements.

[CelticRambler]

I suspect it's this proposal finally being put to a vote.

The key part of it reads:

The obligation to have an energy performance certificate is extended to buildings undergoing major renovation, buildings for which a rental contract is renewed and all public buildings. Buildings or building units which are offered for sale or rent must also have a certificate, and the energy performance class will need to be stated in all advertisements.

So that's fair enough. Your house and you live in it as-is, do what you like; make changes or try to financially profit from it, then you've got to meet the standard, retro-fitting if necessary.

This would be very similar to the situation we had in France at the time we bought our house. One of the conditions France had to agree to when being admitted into the EEC (yes, the EEC ) was a commitment to ensuring that all houses had proper sanitation, either by connection to a septic tank or a mains sewage system. Some sixty years later, the then EU reminded France that the deadline for compliance had passed and there was still "some" work to be done, and it had better be done tout de suite, merci. Hence a sudden mass digging up of town- and village-centre roads and the creation of local sewage treatment systems.

Anyone too far away to be connected had to have a compliant septic tank or take a hit on their house's sale price so that the new owner could sign the necessary promise to get one installed. Many a promise was signed but has yet to be fulfilled ( ... .... ) However, if such a new owner decides to apply for planning permission for a new skylight, or a new back door, or wants to take advantage of a cheap insulation scam ... sorry, incentive, or to sell the house, a certificate of compliance for the septic tank is the first thing that has to be provided.

So while it may be a case that retrofitting insulation to a 1980s house makes no financial sense for someone who's going to live in it for another 30 years, knocking 100k off the asking price in the event of a sale might change that equation quite dramatically.

On my recent trip to Dublin, I was surprised to see just how many (semi-detached) suburban houses were being fitted with external insulation. If this is being done voluntarily, there must be some pay-off.

[Bishop_Brennan]

fecking robbing scum, all this green shit, from the start I knew it was a complete money making SCAM.

[Mirabeau]

To quote the Immortal Hulk Hogan:

Whatcha gonna do?

Vote them out and get Sinn Fein?

Frightening where this country is going.

[Bishop_Brennan]

The energy rating of existing residential buildings will have to meet a minimum E rating by 2030 and gradually improve from there onwards.

Incredible as well as the cost of "upgrading" the building to E, one can expect more "upgrades" with hefty price tags every 5/10 years....

What.
A.
F*cking.
Scam.

[Bishop_Brennan]

To quote the Immortal Hulk Hogan:

Whatcha gonna do?

Vote them out and get Sinn Fein?

Frightening where this country is going.

I'd imagine SF would be all over this sh1t too ...

[Mirabeau]

I'd imagine SF would be all over this sh1t too ...

Exactly, plus all the other filth they are involved with.

[Bishop_Brennan]

Btw, I was thinking of buying a property in Dublin to either rent out or Air BNB ... (I have an inheritance coming..) maybe it's time to re think that ...

[Cyclepath]

All of this is driven by the need to meet exacting EU standards and targets. The powers that be don't give a f**k whether or not it pays for itself in your lifetime!

The external insulation thing is probably the cheapest way to get your house to an 'E' rating. It's grant aided too. For the average terrace house you can get it done for about 2K with the grant. You could in theory reap the rewards of that in your own lifetime given the current price of gas/oil/electric heating.

[Fratello]

Attic insulation to 300mm thick and central heating controls, both grant funded, will do it. Both have the shortest payback and provide instant tangable savings and increased comfort. The controls measure can be a bit messy, depends how the house was piped but in many cases it is OK. I got this 1800/1850 built house from F to C3 without major expenditure.

[Mirabeau]

Attic insulation to 300mm thick and central heating controls, both grant funded, will do it. Both have the shortest payback and provide instant tangable savings and increased comfort. The controls measure can be a bit messy, depends how the house was piped but in many cases it is OK. I got this 1800/1850 built house from F to C3 without major expenditure.

Thank you for the reassurances Minister Ryan.

[Hairy-Joe]

Oh I understand the insulation in the attic and pumping walls works wonders (having done it to a early 70's semi-D I lived in before). It's the enforced nature that I've a major problem with. Secondary is knowing our lot driven by the Greens, they'll try to be best in class and try to enforce a higher standard in a shorter time frame.....

[Cyclepath]

Oh I understand the insulation in the attic and pumping walls works wonders (having done it to a early 70's semi-D I lived in before). It's the enforced nature that I've a major problem with. Secondary is knowing our lot driven by the Greens, they'll try to be best in class and try to enforce a higher standard in a shorter time frame.....

Agreed, it's the enforcement that's the issue. I actually want my house to be more efficient. In an ideal world my entire south facing roof would be tiled with solar panels and the house would insulated to the nines with triple glazing and be passively heated, and I'd be selling electricity back to the grid. But I just don't have the money to do that (well in theory I could borrow, but then I'd never be able to afford a f**king holiday again in my life which of course would suit Eamonn's f**king plans ideally...)

[isha]

It's passed as law now by EU.
Estimated 35 million buildings need to be updated in Europe to comply.
They think they are "unlocking a renovation wave". Has anyone told them about full employment and how hard it is right now to get a plumber or an electrician anywhere?
It makes house ownership more expensive, more out of reach of young people, when it's already nigh on impossible for them.
It removes the value of older people's property from them. Control.
It gives so much more power to the state over the property rights of people.
It's a form of taxation. Of more government fingers in the private pies.
This is not comparable to stopping leaked sewage to water courses.
Landlords may not be able to afford it so they will pass on rent increases or get out of letting. More housing/homelessness problems.

Own nothing. Eat bugs. Be happy. We're gonna save the planet, serfs.

That's it. I'm off to become a full fledged libertarian because I'm fed up of these pea brained communists.

[Hairy-Joe]

Is this the thin edge of the wedge and how long until people push back?

On the "BEV only" route, the German transport minister pushed back as it's unfeasible for all vehicles and there's a push for synthetic fuels (from plant waste or CO2) in Motorsport and a push for hydrogen in the heavy machine field (JCB's). Italy has also pushed back on the BEV only route. I can see this being pushed back also.

I'm all for making houses more energy efficient if renovations are being done. However, hows people owning and living in listed buildings going to work? I know people living in old listed stately piles and for them, it would be millions having to be spent.

[Setanta]

Could be just the way RTE is reporting it - they are often very sloppy.

I'd suspect that this may be about existing buildings having to meet certain energy standards IF substantial works are carried out on them. Similar to the situation with building regs.

Mandatory retrofitting of existing dwellings at the owners' expense - best of luck with that. If they bring that in they're going to need plenty of lampposts - and not for illuminating anything.

What they'll do,is approach it the same as septic tanks imo

Anyone seeking to build extension etc,they'll make upgrading the insulation/windows in main buildings as part of conditions


Know 2 people who have 80s era bungalow,building on a Granny flat,who've been hit with mandatory upgrades on septic tank as part condition.







As an aside EU deosnt have a policeforce and thus it's laws (and a regulation deosnt reach same status as a law) are pretty much unenforceable,unless a citizen brings local government to court to get em implemented

[Calahonda52]

Know 2 people who have 80s era bungalow, building on a Granny flat,who've been hit with mandatory upgrades on septic tank as part condition.

as we say: **it happens!

[kadman]

The government cant police or enforce existing building regs in all sorts of situations, thats why we have multi billion euro redress schemes, let alone anything else.

[isha]

The government cant police or enforce existing building regs in all sorts of situations, thats why we have multi billion euro redress schemes, let alone anything else.

But they can follow you for taxes/fines everywhere including after death. Eg if you sell a house whose sale price hasn't been suitably "discounted" for not reaching save the planet levels of goodness, the government can at it's leisure fine you .

Maybe I'm wrong but I think this has knocked huge value off of people's assets who have houses which are even medium term older.

[CelticRambler]

You might be seeing there the unintended consequence of a widening gulf between the continental view of property ownership and the ever more common Anglo-American attitude of the Irish, where your house is now seem primarily as an investment rather than the family home.

That was the N°1 reason why I turned my back on Ireland in the 00s and opted to move to France instead. Despite a modest rise in its value (more to do with my landscaping than any thing else), 20 years later, my house here is still notionally worth less than the 2003 asking prices of the few semi-Ds I looked at in Dublin back then. And I chose not to pay those prices because I could get four times the house and ten times the land, and still have enough cash left over to buy a brand new motorhome as well.

So if any proposal knocks 100k off the value of an Irish house, I'd say it's probably no big deal in the grand scheme of things.

[isha]

When it's only the oul lad or the 'rents still in the home it's not really the family home anymore, is it?

People like to do different things with their house eg downsize and give the excess to the kids as a helping hand to get their deposits on their own places.

I don't have any particular plans but I roll something like that around in my head. I have proposed us getting an acre and building a small wooden cabin and giving the kids the majority of the proceeds to help them out. Himself doesn't like the sound of "small wooden cabin". My other recent proposal is inviting them all back home, assigning them rooms with their partners where they will make lots of babies, live in a commune and take over the world. Himself is more on board with that idea. But I feel I would still need a wooden cabin so I don't get turned back into a slave.

Point is people worked to get their homes and should be entitled to realise some wealth out of it. I'm sick of the neo-feudalism which is more and more concentrating wealth in the hands of the very few and devaluing by top down authoritarian laws everything ordinary people gather for their own selves

[kadman]

But they can follow you for taxes/fines everywhere including after death. Eg if you sell a house whose sale price hasn't been suitably "discounted" for not reaching save the planet levels of goodness, the government can at it's leisure fine you .

Maybe I'm wrong but I think this has knocked huge value off of people's assets who have houses which are even medium term older.

True enough.
But if your house is left in custodian ship of your family members, they can rent it, get an income. Government currently dont give a shite about what buildings tenants go into, so they wont be policing it. family can move into your empty house, and rent out their own.

Thinking outside of the box. opens up all sorts of avenues...