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How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

All things commuting + bus and rail enthusiasts
Crusty Burke
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How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#1

Post by Crusty Burke »

As some of you may know I am a little bit of an advocate for railway development. :lol:

In my view, there are several potential routes and developments that ought to be looked at very seriously over the next 20 years. Indeed I believe that the upcoming rail review should set out a 20 year development plan for rail across the island. But we also need to consider other planning policies in both jurisdictions. For too long improved public transport has been seen by the policy makers as a "reward" for development rather than a driver for development.

One key issue regarding rail infrastructure both North and South is that both jurisdictions are heavily developed around Belfast and Dublin respectively, with comparatively little development of the rail network outside the suburban areas.

We do have an opportunity around the Ireland 2040 plan to rectify that situation and put more focus on the regional cities.

I welcome the plans for Cork Suburban electrification as a step in the right direction, it's a pity though that Youghal has to make do with Greenway scraps rather than a straightforward plan to reopen the rail line. It would be a massive shot in the arm for Youghal and would drive new development around the town.

Rather than sticking a long post about what I want to see happen - I will come to that if anyone responds to this post - I'd like to see what others think we should see coming from the Rail Review and how the railway should develop over the next 20 years....
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artybike
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#2

Post by artybike »

I'm glad you've kicked off the discussion on North South with regards to rail. I tweet away on the issue a fair bit, & the amount of folk up North on both sides of the political Rubicon seem agreed on the lack of decent rail on the Island. Furthermore, all the counties that have no rail are in Ulster (correct me if I'm wrong). The significance of developing our 'All Ireland' rail infra has implications more far reaching than merely transport.... and some politicians can see that.... ;)
Turning Corners
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#3

Post by Turning Corners »

Purely from a selfish perspective, it would be great if they double-tracked the Rosslare-Dublin line and added more stations. The M11 is a complete mess with any sort of congestion and buses aren't the answer as they're affected by said congestion.

Stations in Naas and Navan should also be high priority.
Crusty Burke
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#4

Post by Crusty Burke »

Turning Corners wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:49 pm Purely from a selfish perspective, it would be great if they double-tracked the Rosslare-Dublin line and added more stations. The M11 is a complete mess with any sort of congestion and buses aren't the answer as they're affected by said congestion.

Stations in Naas and Navan should also be high priority.
The Rosslare line south of Greystones is cursed with the twin evils of a single track line and infrequent services. It beggars belief that the last train to Wicklow Town, Gorey, Arklow, Enniscorthy and Wexford is at 6.35pm. If you live in these towns and want to leave Dublin later than that then you either drive or get a bus. Irish Rail do themselves no favours by running a timetable that only suits their employees rather than passengers!
schmittel
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#5

Post by schmittel »

Crusty Burke wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:08 pm As some of you may know I am a little bit of an advocate for railway development. :lol:

In my view, there are several potential routes and developments that ought to be looked at very seriously over the next 20 years. Indeed I believe that the upcoming rail review should set out a 20 year development plan for rail across the island. But we also need to consider other planning policies in both jurisdictions. For too long improved public transport has been seen by the policy makers as a "reward" for development rather than a driver for development.

One key issue regarding rail infrastructure both North and South is that both jurisdictions are heavily developed around Belfast and Dublin respectively, with comparatively little development of the rail network outside the suburban areas.

We do have an opportunity around the Ireland 2040 plan to rectify that situation and put more focus on the regional cities.

I welcome the plans for Cork Suburban electrification as a step in the right direction, it's a pity though that Youghal has to make do with Greenway scraps rather than a straightforward plan to reopen the rail line. It would be a massive shot in the arm for Youghal and would drive new development around the town.

Rather than sticking a long post about what I want to see happen - I will come to that if anyone responds to this post - I'd like to see what others think we should see coming from the Rail Review and how the railway should develop over the next 20 years....
Can't help but thinking that the trend for converting all our old rail routes into greenways does not bode well for future rail development.
Joe Guffy
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#6

Post by Joe Guffy »

First up, stop pandering to the cycle/greenway lobbies and their obsession with only creating paths on existent railway right of ways. By all means we need and welcome cycle route, just not instead of what is or capable of being there.

Secondly, Kildare St mandarins need to admit that good railways cost money to run and to install, and to fund them accordingly. In general Irish Rail do their best with paltry resources but the fact is that any other operator will struggle under the same low PSO level of funding and public service models overseeing it.

Thirdly, complete DART Underground. It's a ridiculously obvious solution to reinventing Dublin's transport system and it will solve so so many issues in the city.

Fourth, continual cross-border cooperation is essential, particularly with views to open up options for the Donegal-Sligo region.

I could go on....
Crusty Burke
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#7

Post by Crusty Burke »

Dart Underground is such a no brainer that only those with no brains and no vision would stop it going ahead. The route is part of the TEN-T core network so funding is available via the EU but the other elephant in the room is how to resolve the Malahide - Connolly bottleneck. This opens up other sensible options like getting heavy rail provision to Ireland’s busiest port of entry...now that would be a game changer.
Turning Corners
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#8

Post by Turning Corners »

Crusty Burke wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:59 am The Rosslare line south of Greystones is cursed with the twin evils of a single track line and infrequent services. It beggars belief that the last train to Wicklow Town, Gorey, Arklow, Enniscorthy and Wexford is at 6.35pm. If you live in these towns and want to leave Dublin later than that then you either drive or get a bus. Irish Rail do themselves no favours by running a timetable that only suits their employees rather than passengers!
Big time. We moved to South Wicklow last year. One of us commutes to Dublin part time and it's far handier driving than being restricted by the awful train schedule. If they had a proper service, more frequent and dual tracking, it would do wonders for congestion. Maybe someday, when we're retired!
Joe Guffy
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#9

Post by Joe Guffy »

Crusty Burke wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:11 pm Dart Underground is such a no brainer that only those with no brains and no vision would stop it going ahead. The route is part of the TEN-T core network so funding is available via the EU but the other elephant in the room is how to resolve the Malahide - Connolly bottleneck. This opens up other sensible options like getting heavy rail provision to Ireland’s busiest port of entry...now that would be a game changer.
The appalling thing here is that the room is there for at least a third track to get us as far as Portmarnock, give or take a bit of engineering for the raised embankment at the southern end of Howth Road.

And all for the cost of 1/10 of a port tunnel.
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artybike
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#10

Post by artybike »

Turning Corners wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:49 pm Purely from a selfish perspective, it would be great if they double-tracked the Rosslare-Dublin line and added more stations. The M11 is a complete mess with any sort of congestion and buses aren't the answer as they're affected by said congestion.

Stations in Naas and Navan should also be high priority.
Goodness yes, most politicians do things from a selfish perspective. Policy & public service are beyond many of them. The Western Rail Corridor was not only being planned for years, it had timetables for completion etc.
2009 – Opening of Ennis-Athenry section
2011 – Opening of Athenry-Tuam section
2014 – Opening of Tuam-Claremorris section
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Railway_Corridor

What kills me is a perfectly good plan can be so easily de-railed in Ireland, from government to government, it's a miracle we get anything achieved :shock:
marhay70
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#11

Post by marhay70 »

Crusty Burke wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:59 am The Rosslare line south of Greystones is cursed with the twin evils of a single track line and infrequent services. It beggars belief that the last train to Wicklow Town, Gorey, Arklow, Enniscorthy and Wexford is at 6.35pm. If you live in these towns and want to leave Dublin later than that then you either drive or get a bus. Irish Rail do themselves no favours by running a timetable that only suits their employees rather than passengers!
Can't see double-tracking of the Rosslare line in my lifetime, it would be a huge undertaking and would probably swallow the rail budget for decades.
The biggest challenge would be Bray-Greystones, I imagine. IE has always claimed that the Inter-city service can't be improved because of the frequency of Dart services but a temporary solution would be a hub at Greystones where train services could operate a shuttle to Wexford.
Crusty Burke
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#12

Post by Crusty Burke »

The contract to conduct the All Island rail review was jointly awarded today by both governments to Arup. Hopefully the outcome of the review will be significant improvements to the rail network - especially in the North West where there are whole counties completely without any rail services...
noplacehere
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#13

Post by noplacehere »

I really hope they do it well but I’m not hopeful. There is incredible short sightedness.

Example: Maynooth line. Depot being put between maynooth and Kilcock despite both kilcock and Enfield already having a large and rapidly growing commuter population
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artybike
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#14

Post by artybike »

I honestly believe if our TD's were given Travel Cards instead of 'per mile' travel expenses, our public transport, our planning & our environment would be in Better shape.

Less bureaucracy too...

Some of these articles are food for thought
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-n ... s-24527520

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations- ... -expenses/

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/p ... 08880.html

You get the drift.
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Del.Monte
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#15

Post by Del.Monte »

I heard one of the Healy-Raes on the radio recently saying how vital the rail service from Tralee to Dublin is but that he never uses it.
'no more blah blah blah'
Abella
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#16

Post by Abella »

Nothing let it rot!
The elephant in the room is the free travel pass, while a great idea, the number of them issued in the last few years is over 1,000,000, and most of these can bring a spouse or companion with them to travel for free.
The budget for the FTP has not increased in a loooooooooooong time, but the number issued has, we would be spending Millions on a rail way service that would be a huge money pit, used only by FTP holders as the ticket prices are crazy high.
Cull the numbers of FTP holders and then people would have to pay and then the rail service might be a runner, they given the FTP out for every minor ailment these days and once you get it you have it for life, you get depressed ,get the free travel pass, win the lotto , marry and have a family, life has never been better , living the dream, have never felt better, have not been depressed in a decade, this person will still have a FTP, how is that justifiable?
Remember that the next time you are paying for a fare to go to work, many others going to work on the same bus/train have a FTP, also the fares will be going up in the next few months, delightful for the paying passengers when the scum bags travel for free.
Hairy-Joe
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#17

Post by Hairy-Joe »

I remember why my Grandmother got the FTP. She couldn't use it during the morning and evening rush hours.

At the moment, you have people using the FTP to go to Dublin
from Cork on an early train, pop in for a coffee and go back home. That's completely wrong. The last time I was on a train here I went from Longford to Dublin. I was one of the few on the train that paid for their ticket I'd say.
kadman
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#18

Post by kadman »

Realistically I would say many FTP are never used. My brother and mum and dad have one. Only the brother has used it for hospital visits to Dublin about 4 times a year, thats it. Mother has used it probably once a year to galway.

I became a pensioner 2 weeks ago and got a ftp. But I cant forsee myself using it any time soon, I much prefer driving my classic VW, thats until Ryan puts them off the road.
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Del.Monte
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#19

Post by Del.Monte »

Whatever about scumbags etc. getting free travel passes, the bulk of those with passes will have paid taxes all their lives and are entitled to them - one of the few advantages of growing old. Free travel pass holders are also good for business in the places they travel to. Pre-Covid I could see it regularly on the Rosslare line with OAPs enjoying holiday breaks in local hotels - and spending money.

There's definitely abuse of the system and this is down to CIE and the Dept.of Social Welfare not doing their job properly. There's also a case to be made for restricting the use of the pass at peak hours but with dispensation made for medical appointments etc.
'no more blah blah blah'
kadman
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#20

Post by kadman »

Abuse of the DSP system is a whole other thread, probably more scary than the covid thread.
For my pension I had to document, employers, dates, occupations, signing for unemployment when I was out of work going back to 1969, both here and in the UK.
Which I did with a 1" thick folder, P60's, P45's ect,ect.
On completion and after 4 months silence, they could not dispute a single document I provided them with..........because they did not keep records before 1980 :shock: :?

So i received the pension, happy days. When I went to collect, they paid me the pension, and the jobseekers. So basically double. I brought this to the attention of the postmistress. She told me I had to take it, as she could not split the payments. I rang the pension line, and told them their mistake. They fought with me on the phone and said their system was correct, and not to worry about it :? :? :?

Went for my pension following week..........................same thing happened :? :? :? :? :?
Abella
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#21

Post by Abella »

Del.Monte wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:21 pm Whatever about scumbags etc. getting free travel passes, the bulk of those with passes will have paid taxes all their lives and are entitled to them - one of the few advantages of growing old. Free travel pass holders are also good for business in the places they travel to. Pre-Covid I could see it regularly on the Rosslare line with OAPs enjoying holiday breaks in local hotels - and spending money.

There's definitely abuse of the system and this is down to CIE and the Dept.of Social Welfare not doing their job properly. There's also a case to be made for restricting the use of the pass at peak hours but with dispensation made for medical appointments etc.
No one said anything about taking the FTP away from the OAP, but its has grow to be a monster, once you get it you have it for life no matter if your circumstances change.
Do you think it fair that people on 20k a year have to pay a fare buy some FTP holder on 100k don't? If you are working why should you have a FTP?
Justify these fares and others travel for free.
Train prices dublin to galway
Image
Bus dublin to cork
Image

CIE have nothing to do with the FTP number in circulation, the dept.of social welfare is giving them out in crazy numbers for rinky dink ailments, how can someone be so disabled that they get a FTP when the same person is using the pass to travel to the gym to pump iron or go to football practice?
Look at the mothers on dole day getting on the bus, FPT and a slab of beer in the buggy as their children run wild on the bus, so disable they get a FTP but not so disabled that they push out a child every 2 years.
In case you don't know the FTP makes a differnt sound when scanned on the Dublin Bus card reader, next time you are on a bus , take mental note of the massive number of passengers who are on the FTP, its shocking, it at least 40% and that would be at rush hour, WTF are they doing on the bus at rush hour when workers are trying to get home? If they themselves are working, why do they have a FTP?
The bus regularly passes stops as it full leaving working men and women behind, thats wrong, no if ands or buts about it, FTP people should have to pay during rush hour, no excuse for them to be taking up space at the time, if they are not working they can do their business off peak, and if they are working buy a ticket

i expect plenty of posters to disagree, these will all be FTP holders, and they will have no logical argument to defend the current FTP status other than "the dept.of social welfare has deemed me entitled to it" and that there is the problem , too many get the pass for mickey mouse reasons and this leads to a transport service seriously underfunded.
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artybike
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#22

Post by artybike »

How the hell did this become an anti Travel card thread?. My sister, who used to work, pay taxes & drive a car became quiet disabled (Acquired brain Injury with severe epilepsy), had to fight for one. It's been a life saver and made moving out of the city to our house in a small town (with a railway station) a bit more bearable & given her a teeny tiny bit of independence once a week.

I merely suggested a FTP for politicians so they'd not be so car centric as this effects their policy & planning. Why do you think they're happy to CPO half the country for motorways, but not to widen a road for a blooming footpath to a school!!!

Cheaper fares are what are needed. Irish rail cut the fares, especially for students, on the Western Rail corridor, numbers shot up, along with profits.... an almost empty train with a few tickets sold is not as profitable as a a train full with 'affordable ticket' holders
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Del.Monte
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#23

Post by Del.Monte »

@ artybike

You only have to look at the poster who 'derailed' the thread - it's only surprising that Covid wasn't mentioned.
'no more blah blah blah'
Crusty Burke
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#24

Post by Crusty Burke »

Let's put this thread back on track, so to speak.

The NTA's Connecting Ireland consultation on their proposals around provincial bus frequencies is ongoing. Forgive me for being naive here but is it right that the NTA should completely ignore the rail service and particularly where the current service is beyond inadequate?

The Ballybrophy-Nenagh-Limerick line is currently closed for relaying of track, yet the timetable served up by IÉ is beyond a joke, as is the current Limerick Junction to Waterford service. Shouldn't these be part of the Connecting Ireland review?
kadman
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Re: How should we develop Ireland's railways - North and South

#25

Post by kadman »

I would have thought all modes of transport came under a collective umbrella. From the point of view of budgeting and planning.
Surely it could not operate efficiently other wise, or am i missing something.
Or then again, if they are similar to other government departments i.e DSP and Revenue who seem to work independently, then its just another missed opportunity to get things right.
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