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Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

Measure twice, cut once...
CelticRambler
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Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#1

Post by CelticRambler »

Talk me out of it lads. Talk me out of it ...

A recent visitor looked at my increasingly tidy line of tree trunks, listened to my notion of getting a non-responsive Frenchman to come around with a sawmill and turn them into useable timber, and said "just buy one and do it yourself".

That suggestion was carefully tagged "yeah, right" and filed away for no further consideration.

And then the boozy princess I follow on YouTube showed about a half-a-second clip of her tree-man (who was, in fact, my Plan B) turning her trees into useable timber. Only he wasn't using the bells-and-whistles fully automated hydraulic machine that the French guy has, but a simpler manual version, rather like this:



It just so happens that I'll be passing very close to where they make/sell that particular machine at the end of the month, and a few more times over the course of the following months, and I'm thinking that maybe it'd be kinda handy to bring one back as a souvenir of my travels ... ... ...

Or rather, I'm thinking that (like with the digger and the cherry picker) it'd be a damn sight more convenient to have the machine available and ready to go when I have the time and the weather and the enthusiasm to do the work, and (also taking a lead from my use of the digger) not being under pressure to decide up front what exact cuts I want from each log.

Would sell the machine at close to the purchase price once the job was done. Alternatively, I could just pay a man to come and do it all in a day and take my chances.

Whatdye think?
SmartinMartin
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#2

Post by SmartinMartin »

Have you considered an Alaskan mill? I've been looking at it on and off. It takes a bit of setting up, but looks to give great results. You can pick up a Chinese 105cc saw very cheaply, and fit it with a ripping chain. Have a look here;



490808
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#3

Post by 490808 »

SmartinMartin wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:40 am Have you considered an Alaskan mill? I've been looking at it on and off. It takes a bit of setting up, but looks to give great results. You can pick up a Chinese 105cc saw very cheaply, and fit it with a ripping chain. Have a look here;

...
You do waste a massive amount of timber when ripping with a chainsaw chain.

Its also slow and very manual.
CelticRambler
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#4

Post by CelticRambler »

SmartinMartin wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:40 am Have you considered an Alaskan mill? I've been looking at it on and off. It takes a bit of setting up, but looks to give great results. You can pick up a Chinese 105cc saw very cheaply, and fit it with a ripping chain.
Yes, I have looked into that option, on and off over the last few years, but it's never really appealed to me. I'm not mad about the idea that every cut is squared off with reference to the previous one, and the squareness of those cuts depends on keeping the guide and saw blade horizontal across the log while pushing it along the rail at ninety degrees, and also keeping a hand on the throttle. Also, the rail has to be set up and calibrated for each and every trunk, which sounds like a lot of time-wasting if doing a series of short stumps.

Then there are all the practicalities of working with a chain saw rather than a band saw, not to mention the amount of extra material that'd be lost to the thickness of the chain compared to a blade. Chances are the planks would end up being well-warped at the end of their drying period, and I'll be losing plenty of material to holes, cracks and other damage already hidden inside, but another video (competing model, but very similar spec) showed them taking off thin slices to use as a veneer, which is exactly the kind of thing I might want to suddenly switch to if I discovered a really nice pattern part way through the process.

My original cost-benefit calculation was roughly based on the price of an Alaskan mill + chainsaw + chains, all of which I estimate would come to roughly 750-1000€ ; getting the man in would be about the same or a little more, depending on exactly what volume I end up with (currently about 20m³ but I need to re-check that after re-cutting them). With the mill on-site long-term, I could probably add extra volume, as I have some very irregular, knotty pieces that are definitely not suitable for carpentry, so I wouldn't pay to have them cut, but they might make for really interesting, artistic planks (that'll be a question of timing - they'll be hacked to pieces for the fire if they stay where they are for much longer!)

Edit: swear-filter got me! :lol:

And Continental got in with a snappy reply while I was typing.
Last edited by CelticRambler on Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
kadman
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#5

Post by kadman »

Agree with Smartin here.
Alaskan mill is the cheapest option, and wastage is insignificant at 10mm max per cut. Its easier for the diy guy. Chains are easier sharpened.
And as Smartin says you HAVE to use a ripping chain, or re sharpen a chain to the ripping angle which is easily done, and use that.
It will be torture with a normal cutting chain.

Mobile saw mill using a blade is a great set up for sure. I have planked free hand with a 30" chainsaw using a rip blade 50" diameter sycamore when there was no such thing as an Alaskan mill.

If budget allows, and you have lots of timber to do, then get a mobile mill. But dont expect to recoup all your money by selling it on. Not gonna happen , mobile milling is a niche market.

And preserving your converted planks is another thread. Poorly done, and you end up with planked firewood. Drying is akin to the black arts.
Crap drying gives you stick marks, splitting, checking as well as blue sap stains ect

And some timbers need initial drying done standing the planks upright for a period of time.
Or build your own diy kiln which is easily done, and use a drying method that does this for you, all for another thread.

Looks like you might have to cancel your dancing............................you are going to be too busy :mrgreen:
490808
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#6

Post by 490808 »

lol we now have planks of wood that are XXXXXX :lol:

Edit> I see that relevant edits have been made above.
CelticRambler
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#7

Post by CelticRambler »

kadman wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:55 amBut dont expect to recoup all your money by selling it on. Not gonna happen , mobile milling is a niche market.
Not around these parts! :mrgreen:
kadman wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:55 amLooks like you might have to cancel your dancing............................you are going to be too busy :mrgreen:
Not a chance - dancing is the priority; everything else has to be fitted in around it.

And besides, about a quarter of people I dance with are woodworkers in the widest sense of the word. Chances are they'd be the ones shifting the cut planks into storage. :P
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#8

Post by kadman »

If its not a niche market, then why cant you get someone to do it for you. :shock:
CelticRambler
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#9

Post by CelticRambler »

kadman wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:04 am If its not a niche market, then why cant you get someone to do it for you. :shock:
Same reasons as for (just about) all other work in this country - very hard to coordinate availability, especially when the commercial people don't respond to attempts to contact them and work limited hours, and the non-commercials are using the gear themselves in their spare time. Plans A and B do still involve getting someone to do it, but, as I said, that'll mean I need to know exactly what I want on the day they turn up, which means I have to get to the point of first knowing what I have.
490808
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#10

Post by 490808 »

What length and thickness of timber are you planking?

What will be the end use?

If you are planking short thick trunks into large bulks the chainsaw mill is a good option.

On the other hand I think it would be more sensible to plank longer timbers on a bandsaw mill.
Uncle Frank
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#11

Post by Uncle Frank »

I would be in two minds about buying large machinery like that.

Against it would be storage, maintanence, repairs and so on. If you hire a guy to do it you can let him worry about all that.

For it would be you could turn it into a part time business and make a few ducats doing it around the local area. Not to mention when cutting your own wood you could take your time and do it quarter sawn, do some veneers and such as the fancy takes you, whereas the guy you hire in for the day might just want to plane saw everything and whip through it as quickly as possible.
490808
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#12

Post by 490808 »

Another question how much is the sawmill?

The only prices that are easy to find are on US sites for Harbour Freight gear and to my mind not that expensive.
kadman
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#13

Post by kadman »

Agree with Uncle Frank there, you need to be able to get the quality cuts, as opposed to the quantity cuts.
Chainsaw mill will give the normal through and through cuts. But will be more hassle to get quartersawn which would be a good quality material, and more expensive as well.

But depending on your final use requirements , different users would pay more money for their requirements. While quartersawn may be better for cabinet makers, logsawn may be better for wood turners.

Your first thing should be to identify exactly what you want to get out of it.

If it was mine, I would be planking it in 2",3",4",6". But thats because I am woodturner, and furniture maker, and those sizes, and cuts would suit me.With a bandmil, or a saw mill.

But I still would not outright purchase a bandmill. Its too expensive an outlay for a diy project, which is what this is. And if you think an Alaskan mill is hassle to set up. you are going to be in for a bigger surprise with a band mill. When you start breaking blades, its serious money. And any bandsaw, horizontal or vertical rely on properly setup guides to maintain accuracy in a cut. If its not right, you are in trouble.
I have spent a career in using woodworking machinery for architectural joinery work, and can tell you, youtube videos make things look simple, thats because its done by experienced professionals.

Of course there are Youtube woodworking disasters...............which you may be adding to if things go off tangent. :shock: :D
CelticRambler
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#14

Post by CelticRambler »

The Continental Op wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:20 am Another question how much is the sawmill?
4300€ this week (two cumulative discounts applicable, not really sure why), buyer collects (which I can do at no cost); can get one of two competitor models for about the same or slightly higher, but not available for "in-store pick-up" so delivery is a few hundred extra ... and delivery times are currently 4 weeks to 4 months! :shock:
The Continental Op wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:01 am What length and thickness of timber are you planking?
30 pieces, the majority ranging from about 0.7m x 2.0m to 0.6m x 3.6m ; six are over 3m in length, one almost 5m. 18 are more than 60cm in diameter, of which 6 are greater than 0.75m. These are the shortened, tidied up pieces, with an estimated total volume of about 18m³

I've re-priced it, because I don't think the guy I've been trying to get hold of has updated his website for several years, so based on a random selection of rates from people further away, it'd be about 1250€ to get him in. Also had another look at the Plan B guy's machine and it has a slightly smaller capacity than the one in the video above. Only a few cm less compared to that one, but 30cm less than the Plan A lad.
The Continental Op wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:01 amWhat will be the end use?
kadman wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:46 am Your first thing should be to identify exactly what you want to get out of it.
Therein lies the problem: the end use will be "whatever the wood lends itself to". As things stand at the moment, it'd be for all kinds of everything - cladding, fencing, making one enormous table, worktops, stair treads, window frames, door frames, bookshelves, floorboards or flooring blocks (for the dance hall 8-) ) as well as "artistic" pieces as and when the inspiration strikes.

I'd already started messing about making veneers for various uses, but given up on it in the face of too many technical challenges that I didn't want to deal with. The idea of being able to cut wide, uniformly flat 2-3mm slices with this machine puts that back on the "hmm ... " list. :)

This way of working is what pushed me to buying the digger. I had a list of jobs that I was going to get done, but none of them were actually getting done, because (a) I knew I'd need to have a list of defined works to be carried out when it turned up, which meant knowing exactly where this hole or that slope would need to be, where the clearings would go, how deep, how long, etc., etc. ; and (b) several "digger" projects couldn't be finalised until some other part of the job was finished, which would depend on yet another stage being done.

In the end, when I saw how cheap a cheap Chinese digger was, it was an easy decision to make, and in the twelve months since it arrived, I've got more landscaping and other work done than in the ten previous years, mainly because I don't need to make good use of it in any one day - just get an idea in my head, fit the right attachment (coz I bought them all ... 8-) ) and get on with it. (The digger's also destined to be sold on in due course, but has at least another year's worth of work to do.)
kadman wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:46 amAnd if you think an Alaskan mill is hassle to set up. you are going to be in for a bigger surprise with a band mill. When you start breaking blades, its serious money. And any bandsaw, horizontal or vertical rely on properly setup guides to maintain accuracy in a cut. If its not right, you are in trouble.
I wasn't referring to the initial set-up, but the need to fix guide rails in place for the first cut on each side of each log when using the Alaskan mill. That's four set-ups for every piece, unless I opt for flat cuts the whole way down, which sounds - and looks, going by the videos - like a lot of hassle. It was that that put me off diy milling when I thought it was the only low-ish cost option.
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#15

Post by kadman »

Your plan for diy milling is fraught with potential pitfalls purely from a cost benefit point of view.

Pick any part of your plan,

1.Labour element alone will be enormous, and not a one man job due to the sizes.
2. Initial outlay is running into 1000's with an unknown financial return , if any.
3. Air dried timber versus kiln dried timber prices are vastly different
4. Skill for drying timber is not learnt over night.
5. A cover all scenarios for whatever timber is processed , means cutting on the fly.
6. Only one of the items you mentioned is suitable for using air dried timber, and some of them cant be made unless you cut quartersawn top grade.

If it was a moneymaker then there would be no need for the chinese market booming for the last 20 years producing top quality kiln dried quartersawn oak joinery items to european joineries, where they found it more cost effective to import finished products than buy the timber at home.

Tread carefully my friend.

OOhh, I nearly forgot to mention, most sawmills here refuse to cut the first 6 foot of any tree because the butt tends to be full of nails and metal fencing materials, that destroy blades instantly. So you also need a mig welder to repair the broken blades, as well as a sharpener.
And a swager depending on the blades you are using. Or a reel of blade material, and make your own.

Tiptoe softly ;)
CelticRambler
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#16

Post by CelticRambler »

kadman wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:41 pm Your plan for diy milling is fraught with potential pitfalls purely from a cost benefit point of view.
All points noted.

For info ...
kadman wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:41 pm 1.Labour element alone will be enormous, and not a one man job due to the sizes. One of the reasons they've been sitting there untouched for so long ... but the digger's pretty good at doing the work of three men. One or two other humans may be available this autumn.
2. Initial outlay is running into 1000's with an unknown financial return , if any. No financial return is expected.
3. Air dried timber versus kiln dried timber prices are vastly different ? the wood is being neither bought nor sold, so prices don't come into it.
4. Skill for drying timber is not learnt over night. Was planning to follow the same traditional technique as used by everyone in this part of the world for the last few hundred years - almost everyone with a barn here, over the age of 50, has at least one stack of planks drying in the corner.
5. A cover all scenarios for whatever timber is processed , means cutting on the fly. noted
6. Only one of the items you mentioned is suitable for using air dried timber, and some of them cant be made unless you cut quartersawn top grade.noted

Already factored in at the time of felling, with follow-up inspections and identification/removal of contaminated zones done this year.

Was cursing the rusty tool of a farmer who used to own this place yesterday, when trying to remove some fencing from the site of a future project, and found two sections that had been hammered into a tree that's since put twenty years of growth around them. . :evil:
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#17

Post by JayZeus »

If you're torn on the cost (which is significant by any measure) of the bandsaw mill, you could do much worse than to look into a Logosol mill. It takes the chainsaw power unit and bolts it into a dedicated milling frame, not an Alaskan style jig. Made in Sweden, easy to move and set up where the timber is laying down, not needing you to bring the timber to the mill.

Even with something like a 390/395 XP or similar Stihl, you'd have it up and running for close enough to half the price of that bandsaw mill. You'd also have a good big chainsaw which is doubtless a great tool to have given access to larger logs in your neck of the woods.

I know where I'd be spending my money.
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#18

Post by JayZeus »

CelticRambler
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#19

Post by CelticRambler »

JayZeus wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:13 pm If you're torn on the cost (which is significant by any measure) of the bandsaw mill, you could do much worse than to look into a Logosol mill. It takes the chainsaw power unit and bolts it into a dedicated milling frame, not an Alaskan style jig. Made in Sweden, easy to move and set up where the timber is laying down, not needing you to bring the timber to the mill.

Even with something like a 390/395 XP or similar Stihl, you'd have it up and running for close enough to half the price of that bandsaw mill. You'd also have a good big chainsaw which is doubtless a great tool to have given access to larger logs in your neck of the woods.
Hmm. Like-for-like, that combo comes in at more than the cost of the bandsaw, wouldn't handle the diameter of even half the pieces I have and still has all of what I perceive as the disadvantages of the/any horizontal chainsaw system with the only advantage over the Alaska being the independent cutting guide. And I think I have enough chainsaws in my collection as it is, without adding another one!

These might well be the last trunks I acquire for a long time. My generous neighbour, on whose land they were, has now cut down just about every mature oak on his 200ha. :cry: There are a few nearly-dead specimens along our boundary that he might let me take down, and take, in the years ahead, but that's far from certain. My own tiny bit of woodland will need at least another couple of decades before it's fit for making tables out of! :mrgreen:
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#20

Post by kadman »

CelticRambler wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:33 pm All points noted.

For info ...
So your sole purpose for this venture, that needs no financial return from the outcome of the project, is purely to have oak planks in storage in an airdried state.?
And to do this, you will invest multiple thousands to achieve this. Even tho you will only have material that is suitable for outside use in its airdried condition.

Your argument that you are " planning to follow the same traditional technique as used by everyone in this part of the world for the last few hundred years - almost everyone with a barn here, over the age of 50, has at least one stack of planks drying in the corner."

Means you will end up with single purpose wood for outside. AS it cannot be used for furniture, joinery, or any internal house needs.
Owing to the fact that your 400 yearold ancestors never had central heating which wreaks havoc on furniture made during that period.

If you want a shed full of useable oak, why not bring it to a saw mill, and pay for it to be ripped, and invest your money in an Arrowsmith drier. Or better still make your own diy drier as i did, which dried timber down to 12% and lower moisture content.Paying for it to be milled is a far cheaper option, but expense does not seem to be a factor.

So what is the driving factor to produce fence posts, as I dont have a pair of rose coloured specs that you possess :)

You need to do more research on the mill cost, in particular consumeables and blade repairs. Why dont you freehand rip a butt to see how hard/dry/wet it is. Normally any tree is far easier to rip when its freshly felled, its a different story for dryer timber as you can appreciate.

What is the blade width of the mill you are considering??
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#21

Post by CelticRambler »

kadman wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:47 am So your sole purpose for this venture, that needs no financial return from the outcome of the project, is purely to have oak planks in storage in an airdried state.?
Oak pieces rather than just planks, but yeah, that's about the measure of it. I've had a barn full of salvaged North American softwood pieces for a decade, and I'm running out. Have also been working my way through salvaged 200-year old oak and chestnut planks. The larder is almost bare, and there's a stack of uncut wood 10 metres away. I don't particularly want to burn it as the few small pieces I've cut, dried and planed have been very nice to work with. ;)
kadman wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:47 amMeans you will end up with single purpose wood for outside. AS it cannot be used for furniture, joinery, or any internal house needs.
Owing to the fact that your 400 yearold ancestors never had central heating which wreaks havoc on furniture made during that period.
What's this central heating thing? How does it work, and do I need to get that too? :mrgreen:
kadman wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:47 amIf you want a shed full of useable oak, why not bring it to a saw mill, and pay for it to be ripped.
Same reason as previously stated: the challenge of organising such transport, and the requirement to know exactly how I want each of the 30 pieces cut. There's no advantage at all in transporting that amount of wood 50-100km to a fixed sawmill, then transporting it all back again to exactly where it came from, to then have to be moved piece by piece into the shed. Much easier to cut it right there where it is and move each piece as it comes off the mobile mill. As far as I can find out, the actual milling cost per cubic metre is more or less the same, whether it's mobile or fixed.
kadman wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:47 amWhat is the blade width of the mill you are considering??
3960x34x0,90mm / 180 teeth. 81.60€ apiece. If you meant cutting width, that's 800mm (compared to the non-responsive Frenchman's 1100mm)
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#22

Post by kadman »

No its the blade width, as in front of tooth to back of blade. Looks like a 34 mm blade that requires a substantial drive force. And good equipment for blade repair. You cant just mig them without the right set up to keep them straight Reason being the welded area deforms on cooling.
Brazing is an option, but again same issue without the proper holding method.

I will let you on to spend money then :)
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#23

Post by kadman »

I just this minute looked at your CMS video. And nearly did myself a mischief falling off the chair with laughter.

What he is cutting, and what you want to cut is galaxies apart :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

A bit of dozy beech/sycamore is butter in comparison to what you have.

Take a trunk with you when you are passing the factory, and get them to cut that, in a wood on unlevel ground. On;y then would I be convinced. :)
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#24

Post by Jimmy Bottlehead »

I have absolutely zero knowledge on wood, drying or anything else like the other lads here. But I can't for the life of me see why you'd invest a fairly hefty chunk of cash into this, CR. What's the motivating factor(s)?
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Re: Mobile sawmill - rent-a-man or buy-and-diy?

#25

Post by CelticRambler »

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:17 pmI can't for the life of me see why you'd invest a fairly hefty chunk of cash into this, CR. What's the motivating factor(s)?
Very good question, Jimmy.

Simple motivation would be "to get the job done" - on my terms. One way or another, I want the wood cut (lots of reasons, few of them financial), so there's going to be an outlay of around 1000€ in any case. That'd get me a "take or leave it" service and a selection of cuts that (as Kadman says, and I fully accept his opinion) are likely to be of dubious quality.

What I need to decide is whether the extra investment gives me the opportunity to improve the quality, cutting each log in whatever way gives the best yield, according to what I see as it's being cut and how I might use to best effect. If I sold the machine afterwards for only half the purchase price, then the investment wouldn't have been quite as hefty, and averaged over the ten or twenty years that the timber would keep me amused for, it'd work out as only about the same as long weekend on the lash in Dublin! :mrgreen:
kadman wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:06 pmTake a trunk with you when you are passing the factory, and get them to cut that, in a wood on unlevel ground. On;y then would I be convinced. :)
Sounds like a good idea. I have a couple of samples that'd be just right for such an exercise, and could be a good bargaining tool! Anywhere I'd be using it would be flat and hard-surfaced (one of benefits of having had motorway-building engineers use the house as their operational HQ for the decade before we bought it ;) )
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