France is fiery post & thread ban

[DeletedUser]

I’m posting here as requested to argue against my permanent GUBU site ban for the post in the “France is Fiery” thread.

For reference I posted in reply to Isha saying about “whether a young French Algerian immigrant was more likely be a murderer” or in so many words.

My reply that “generally yes” was met with the most heavy handed decision of a permanent site ban, accusations of racism and hate speech and advice to take this “to another site” (I assume referring to Stormfront or similar).

How offensive!!! My reply was not from a position of racism or hate but one of experience and pragmatism. To accuse every post of racism that does not agree with your point of view DOES sound another site though …

It is clear to everyone. but the most woke leftist fool, that the worst terrorism in France has been carried out by and large by either first or second generation Muslims from former French colonies, mainly North African ones. From the Bataclan mass murders (that a colleague was caught up in) to the attack on Charlie Hebdo’s office with its antisemitism to the fore, via beheadings of clergy at prayer and so many others.

I am proud to have Jewish roots. To see less than a couple of generations after their mass murder where millions were lost, teenagers and others with a shared Islam background making Jews fearful of even praying makes me sick to my stomach.

To see people like an elderly French woman today on the news begging the police not to arrest these people as it is racist makes me feel likewise.

It is a valid point to make that yes, whilst it may be sad to the young man’s loved one that he is dead - the chances of him being involved in violent crime in the very near future are vastly higher than your average non-Muslim immigrant teenager in the sane country.

When we class this discussion as racist and hate speech we fall right into the bands of the likes of O’Gorman, McEntee and others who wish to stifle debate and who will surely have blood on their respective hands when Ireland ceases be used as a useful staging post/finance hub by Islamist terrorists and we finally reap what our lax borders have sewn and we replace Bataclan and Lyon with The Point and Grafton Street.

[Guburnor]

I’m posting here as requested to argue against my permanent GUBU site ban for the post in the “France is Fiery” thread.

For reference I posted in reply to Isha saying about “whether a young French Algerian immigrant was more likely be a murderer” or in so many words.

Your justification is a little disingenuous to say the least.

This is the post Isha made:

Is every 17 year old boy who steals a car a potential mass murderer?
Is every 17 year old French boy who steals a car a potential mass murderer?
Is every 17 year old French boy of Algerian descent who steals a car a potential mass murderer?

Your reply (the post you were banned for) was:

Not necessarily
Not necessarily
More than likely yeah

Isha asked is "every 17 year old French boy of Algerian descent who steals a car a potential mass murderer"
Your reply was "More than likely yeah"

If you actually had replied "generally yes" to the question "“whether a young French Algerian immigrant was more likely be a murderer” you wouldn't have been banned. You could have justified the statement, as you have done here, by pointing out the reality of the demographic that have carried out previous terrorist attacks in France. There is no problem discussing that fact here.

But what you said was every 17 year old French boy of Algerian descent who steals a car is more than likely a potential mass murderer. The context of the "not necessarily" applied to the other demographics made your meaning unambiguous.

It crossed the line in my opinion. Hence the site ban.

[DeletedUser]

You did not read anything I wrote and just cut and pasted what justified your biased decision.

I made a valid point but in your opinion only it was seen as ambiguous. I have clarified it above there.

[Guburnor]

You did not read anything I wrote and just cut and pasted what justified your biased decision.

I made a valid point but in your opinion only it was seen as ambiguous. I have clarified it above there.

It wasn't ambiguous, that's the point.

It's not a matter of opinion that you replied to the question "Is every 17 year old French boy of Algerian descent who steals a car a potential mass murderer" with the answer "More than likely yeah".

Granted, it may only be my opinion that this crossed a line, but I have to draw a line somewhere.

As I've said many times before, it is not the case that you can post whatever you like on this site.

[DeletedUser]

It wasn't ambiguous, that's the point.

It's not a matter of opinion that you replied to the question "Is every 17 year old French boy of Algerian descent who steals a car a potential mass murderer" with the answer "More than likely yeah".

Granted, it may only be my opinion that this crossed a line, but I have to draw a line somewhere.

As I've said many times before, it is not the case that you can post whatever you like on this site.

Again you’re missing the point - it is far more likely than that Algerian immigrant teenager be imvolved in violent crime than the other two examples.

I assume you will delete this but the rest of the posters who hold Centre right views should be aware that they are only posting here on the whim of a narrow minded moderator.

Oh and the difference between here and Boards used to be nuance. Not any more.

[Guburnor]

Again you’re missing the point - it is far more likely than that Algerian immigrant teenager be imvolved in violent crime than the other two examples.

I assume you will delete this but the rest of the posters who hold Centre right views should be aware that they are only posting here on the whim of a narrow minded moderator.

Oh and the difference between here and Boards used to be nuance. Not any more.

I can see the point you're making now, and as I've said that is not a view that would result in a ban on this forum. The problem is that is not what you said in the post in question.

I have no intention of deleting this, that's the point of the Modding forum - so decisions like these can be explained in the open and the ensuing discussion can take place in the open. It's why I encouraged you to start a thread here to state your case in preference to emailing me.

And any other poster is welcome to offer their opinion on either the post in question, or the decision taken, or the ensuing discussion.

[DeletedUser]

I can see the point you're making now, and as I've said that is not a view that would result in a ban on this forum. The problem is that is not what you said in the post in question.

I have no intention of deleting this, that's the point of the Modding forum - so decisions like these can be explained in the open and the ensuing discussion can take place in the open. It's why I encouraged you to start a thread here to state your case in preference to emailing me.

And any other poster is welcome to offer their opinion on either the post in question, or the decision taken, or the ensuing discussion but we should not fear making a point that is quickly made, pithy and needs explaining upon fear of a permanent ban.

Perhaps I should have made the point clearer in the original post but this here is what was meant.

And I do welcome comments from any users on whether they believed a permanent lifetime siteban was proportionate and warranted.

[Guburnor]

Perhaps I should have made the point clearer in the original post but this here is what was meant.

And I have just noticed that you made another post on the France thread despite the fact I agreed to lift the ban so you could open the thread re the mod decision, on the express understanding that you remain banned from posting on the rest of the site whilst we have a discussion here?

Do you not see how it is difficult to keep on giving you the benefit of the doubt?

[DeletedUser]

And I have just noticed that you made another post on the France thread despite the fact I agreed to lift the ban so you could open the thread re the mod decision, on the express understanding that you remain banned from posting on the rest of the site whilst we have a discussion here?

Do you not see how it is difficult to keep on giving you the benefit of the doubt?

I thought it was okay to post on the subject? I’m sorry if I misunderstood, genuinely.

Please delete - I got the wrong end of the stick here, I’m sorry.

[Apelles]

I can see the point you're making now, and as I've said that is not a view that would result in a ban on this forum. The problem is that is not what you said in the post in question.

I have no intention of deleting this, that's the point of the Modding forum - so decisions like these can be explained in the open and the ensuing discussion can take place in the open. It's why I encouraged you to start a thread here to state your case in preference to emailing me.

And any other poster is welcome to offer their opinion on either the post in question, or the decision taken, or the ensuing discussion.

Perhaps I should have made the point clearer in the original post but this here is what was meant.

And I do welcome comments from any users on whether they believed a permanent lifetime siteban was proportionate and warranted.

Honestly Guburnor, I'd say others on here have intimated far worse than Planespeeking's remark and have gotten away without any form of retaliation from your good self. Anyway, we do all like open, honest discussions with differing opinions to our own. I've learned so much from this site because of contributors like Planespeeking and isha.
And yes Planespeeking might have crossed over a subtle line in this instance, but no one was actually that offended by it. We're all mature enough to draw our own conclusions to such comments.
And when you think about it, this whole thing of people wanting to have online interaction with complete strangers is always going to be a bit of a learning curve for all of us . . as it should be.
It wasn't an out n' out racist comment she made, but a kind of brain-fart reaction to isha's comment and not at all warranting of a permanent siteban.
I'm asking you to please have a rethink about your decision as I do think its a bit harsh.

[JayZeus]

As a poster on the interwebs who often jumps the gun and/or crosses the line, I think I’d be a silent hypocrite of sorts if I didn’t add my note of support for the above post.

I can see both ‘sides’ on this one. But that’s what makes the whole malarkey worthwhile, isn’t it?

[knownunknown]

I’d agree that the punishment seems excessive, but what posts were made that were worse that didn’t draw gubunor’s ire?

I'd say others on here have intimated far worse than Planespeeking's remark and have gotten away without any form of retaliation from your good self

I suppose it depends on your interpretation of worse. Abusing other posters I would rank as worse but gubunor has acted on those.

[Seanybiker]

I didn't see anything overboard.

Someone mentioned potentially , sure we are all potentially this or that.

[Guburnor]

Honestly Guburnor, I'd say others on here have intimated far worse than Planespeeking's remark and have gotten away without any form of retaliation from your good self. Anyway, we do all like open, honest discussions with differing opinions to our own. I've learned so much from this site because of contributors like Planespeeking and isha.
And yes Planespeeking might have crossed over a subtle line in this instance, but no one was actually that offended by it. We're all mature enough to draw our own conclusions to such comments.
And when you think about it, this whole thing of people wanting to have online interaction with complete strangers is always going to be a bit of a learning curve for all of us . . as it should be.
It wasn't an out n' out racist comment she made, but a kind of brain-fart reaction to isha's comment and not at all warranting of a permanent siteban.
I'm asking you to please have a rethink about your decision as I do think its a bit harsh.

The line is subtle because I am hopeful that posters here are capable of policing themselves; I am not so confident that no one was actually offended by it, TBH.

[Guburnor]

I’d agree that the punishment seems excessive, but what posts were made that were worse that didn’t draw gubunor’s ire?



I suppose it depends on your interpretation of worse. Abusing other posters I would rank as worse but gubunor has acted on those.

I would be hopeful that you won't find posts that are worse on the site, some worse posts have been made but they have been deleted and posters banned.

As regards punishment being excessive, the site ban was not issued based solely on this post.

It was also because of posting history. PS has had three if not four temporary site bans, just back recently from a month's ban, and has been politely asked to temper their posting style on a number of occasions.

[Del.Monte]

I had noticed that the poster's had become less intemperate of late until that particular post and it's a pity another temporary ban couldn't have been offered. In general I think that your moderation is more than fair and it's up to the rest of us to rein in our worst excesses. If it's really bad, put it in the drawer instead of posting and have a look at it again the next day. I know that I'm a poor one to talk but...

[DeletedUser]

I would be hopeful that you won't find posts that are worse on the site, some worse posts have been made but they have been deleted and posters banned.

As regards punishment being excessive, the site ban was not issued based solely on this post.

It was also because of posting history. PS has had three if not four temporary site bans, just back recently from a month's ban, and has been politely asked to temper their posting style on a number of occasions.

I would like to counter that the 30 day ban was for me engaging (wrongly I know) with a clear Boards plant and defunding the site that I care about and get a great deal out of. I deserved the others but that one was different, I feel.

Thank you to those posters for support, means a lot. I’d like to continue the discussions!

But examine this - why SHOULDNT it be okay to offend ??? It was not my intention in a clumsy worded post (I wish o had gone with the OP here) but I have taken offence at posts here and nothing was done.

Seems you just want me gone tbh.

[isha]

Because the line is subtle on complex topics short snappy postings are not appropriate.

Racism is a big issue. But longer posts that explore nuance can interrogate complicated issues with more clarity and potential truth.

There are over 6 million people of Algerian descent in France, almost 13% of its population. Do people really think we should prejudicially racially profile all Algerians in France? That would be crazy. And racist.

But saying there are integration issues or problems with hate preaching in madrasas etc etc etc is nuanced consideration of a very complex issue.

Racism is somewhere within almost everyone's psyche whether we like to believe it or not, even the wokiest of the woke display horrible racism with their indulgent patronage and preferential treatment of people of different ethnicities. We have been evolutionarily programmed to be wary of unknown others. So we do have to interrogate our snap back opinions and unconscious fears.

Personally I think PS is an enjoyable poster in the sense that they are frank and well...plain speaking. But I would prefer nuance such as in the OP here on complex issues, as the snappy comebacks such as posted do almost inevitably look racially prejudicial. It just does. It's also not backed up by statistics that French boys of Algerian descent are more likely to be mass murderers than other French boys. It's a complete falsehood that leads to racism. And I see no peaceful future on this planet if we are reflexively prejudicial to other races.

[nlgbbbblth]

How many complaints did PS's original post get?

The post was somewhat flippant but her explanation is this thread clarifies it much better.

The punishment seems excessively harsh in my opinion.

[marhay70]

Really, it is becoming harder and harder to call a spade a spade in today's woke world. GUBU has become a place where that is possible and it would be a shame if it was to go the way of other forums. I don't see that happening though, I think the Moderation has been very fair and balanced and really, it's up to individuals to temper their language to the site, rather than the other way around.
As regards the offending post, I did think it was a bit over the top and probably not factual, but whether it merited a site ban is moot, I wasn't aware of other bans at that time though.
It's good to see though that the Mod and the poster can discuss the issue on the public forum though and that others can put their views, although I think Guburnor should still be the final arbiter, anything else could be chaotic.

[Guburnor]

How many complaints did PS's original post get?

The post was somewhat flippant but her explanation is this thread clarifies it much better.

The punishment seems excessively harsh in my opinion.

Zero reports on the original post. However that is not unusual. By and large most of our membership are not big on reporting posts.

In the past there have been more reporters but most of those posters left because I refused to act on their reports - i.e I thought that they were too quick to take offence.

[DeletedUser]

Because the line is subtle on complex topics short snappy postings are not appropriate.

Racism is a big issue. But longer posts that explore nuance can interrogate complicated issues with more clarity and potential truth.

There are over 6 million people of Algerian descent in France, almost 13% of its population. Do people really think we should prejudicially racially profile all Algerians in France? That would be crazy. And racist.

But saying there are integration issues or problems with hate preaching in madrasas etc etc etc is nuanced consideration of a very complex issue.

Racism is somewhere within almost everyone's psyche whether we like to believe it or not, even the wokiest of the woke display horrible racism with their indulgent patronage and preferential treatment of people of different ethnicities. We have been evolutionarily programmed to be wary of unknown others. So we do have to interrogate our snap back opinions and unconscious fears.

Personally I think PS is an enjoyable poster in the sense that they are frank and well...plain speaking. But I would prefer nuance such as in the OP here on complex issues, as the snappy comebacks such as posted do almost inevitably look racially prejudicial. It just does. It's also not backed up by statistics that French boys of Algerian descent are more likely to be mass murderers than other French boys. It's a complete falsehood that leads to racism. And I see no peaceful future on this planet if we are reflexively prejudicial to other races.

Point taken Isha - it was attempt to be pithy and a subject as complex as this doesnt work in that format.

If allowed to remain I will give more thought to how posts look, thank you.

[DeletedUser]

Really, it is becoming harder and harder to call a spade a spade in today's woke world. GUBU has become a place where that is possible and it would be a shame if it was to go the way of other forums. I don't see that happening though, I think the Moderation has been very fair and balanced and really, it's up to individuals to temper their language to the site, rather than the other way around.
As regards the offending post, I did think it was a bit over the top and probably not factual, but whether it merited a site ban is moot, I wasn't aware of other bans at that time though.
It's good to see though that the Mod and the poster can discuss the issue on the public forum though and that others can put their views, although I think Guburnor should still be the final arbiter, anything else could be chaotic.

Again, all points taken completely on board - and it was a post that I would not make again.

I would argue the exaxct self same subject but the flippant reply was not deserving of the seriousness of the subject.

[Berties_Horse]

I'll chime in on the chorus defending PlaneSpeeking, a firebrand who lays it out there - nothing wrong with being outspoken although I understand if Guburnor is getting fatigued with repeated transgressions. I was issued a temporary holiday after knocking a notorious Walter Mitty (who subsequently deleted their fiction) on planks, felt this was overkill and have reservations this forum is gradually leaning towards subjective bias. A balance must be struck otherwise there will be increasing apathy among the regular contributors here.

[Guburnor]

I would like to counter that the 30 day ban was for me engaging (wrongly I know) with a clear Boards plant and defunding the site that I care about and get a great deal out of. I deserved the others but that one was different, I feel.

Thank you to those posters for support, means a lot. I’d like to continue the discussions!

But examine this - why SHOULDNT it be okay to offend ??? It was not my intention in a clumsy worded post (I wish o had gone with the OP here) but I have taken offence at posts here and nothing was done.

Seems you just want me gone tbh.

It's not that I just want you gone. Far from it, you have been given more leeway on this site than any other poster. Nobody else even comes close.

I have just checked the mod logs, I was wrong earlier when I said you'd had three maybe, maybe four bans. This was your seventh ban.

Amongst all the bans were about 40 other mod interventions including polite warnings to please think before you post, and stop being so deliberately inflammatory. And also simply deleting some of the personal abuse you give other posters.

I've given you the leeway because you are an active and valued poster here.

But your posting style is entirely unsuitable for a discussion board hoping to cater for all reasonable posters irrespective of ideology etc.

I have to the draw the line somewhere - both in what is considered acceptable to post and at what stage I stop giving posters the benefit of the doubt. I'm in no doubt that you have crossed both of those lines.

I'm sorry if you think that makes me narrow minded and no better than boards etc etc etc but there is not much I can do about that.

I'm happy to give you the last word here, but after that the site ban stands.

Of course I realise that will anger those posters here who have commented that they think the ban is too harsh. I'd ask that they remember that it is not the case that anything goes here. Or as PS puts it above they "should be aware that they are only posting here on the whim of a narrow minded moderator."

Plenty of posters here have already left because they have found the moderation too open minded, they were offended by what I allowed to be posted. I was sorry to see them go, but I was not prepared to change my own view of what was right and wrong to suit them.

The same goes for those who might leave because they find the moderation too narrow minded. I'll be sorry to see you go.