Welcome to GUBU.ie - if you're new here check out Housekeeping for more info. Any queries contact us.

Vaccine megathread

All things COVID
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1126

Post by isha »

It's always easy to tell when you are on the back foot, Scotty, as you get personal.

The story is not unfolding as you say. It just is not.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
490808
Posts: 1487
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:10 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1127

Post by 490808 »

kadman wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:46 am Here is a doctor who believes the vaccines are ineffective, would you believe her? She holds a prestigious position, so presumably she is not an idiot. And she maintains she is not an anti vaxxer .
A doctor that is promoting a debunked "cure".
A doctor who is skeptical of coronavirus vaccines and promotes the anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine as a Covid-19 treatment
So yeah I'd put her down as another idiot.

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/07/scich ... -covid-19/
Researchers have studied whether the antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine — pushed by then-President Donald Trump as early as March 2020 — is effective in treating COVID-19. But randomized controlled clinical trials, in which one group of patients is given the medication and another receives standard care, haven’t found a benefit in mortality or other clinical outcomes in hospitalized patients.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... q-20485627
Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine. These malaria drugs were authorized for emergency use by the FDA during the COVID-19 pandemic. However, the FDA withdrew that authorization when data analysis showed that the drugs are not effective for treating COVID-19. They can also cause serious heart problems.
schmittel
Verified Username
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1128

Post by schmittel »

Scotty wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:24 pm No. I can see the data for myself. Anyone with 5th class level math can see the vaccines are highly effective. Schmittel posted it for us the other day, 5% of the population make up 27 (out of 30) of those in ICU unvaccinated with no underlying health conditions. That's from around 250,000 people in the state.

From the other 4,700,000 people in the state who are vaccinated we got just 3 cases in ICU with no pre existing health issues. THREE CASES!!!!!

And yet we still have morons trying to insist that vaccines are ineffective. They're only fooling themselves. It's like a sickness. Scouring the internet looking for bad news stories, mostly while sitting on the toilet scrolling through facebook and then calling it 'their own research', and then coming on here to link dump and have a little gloat that they found something mildly negative to post about vaccines, often, if they took the time to check it out, complete nonsense. Like Isha's 'remove the aborigines' story.

There is no amount of research/science/studies that could change their minds now. It's been instilled in them and they won't be convinced otherwise no matter what facts are put in front of them or from whom the facts come from. Vaccines = bad, anti vax = good. Luckily for them 95% of us have taken a different stance.

This is all nonsense.

These injections are highly effective at preventing symptomatic disease and very severe cases. That it is clear for all to see.

What they are not effective at is protection from contracting the disease. i.e immunisation, or to put it another way - vaccination. That is equally clear for all to see.

Are you trying to claim that pre Covid the accepted definition (and your understanding) of vaccination was protection from asymptomatic and severe cases of a disease?

Because that's insane. Pre Covid vaccination meant immunisation full stop. For some reason this particular vaccine has caused total morons to forget that, and insist the vaccines are effective. The one thing they are not effective at is vaccination.

Why this is so hard to grasp (or acknowledge) is beyond me.
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2756
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1129

Post by kadman »

Here is another view of a pro vaccine Dr on the mass vaccination of the population for Covid protection. And given that she is another qualified, educated, practicing Dr, we must assume unless we can prove otherwise that she is not an idiot,
COVID-19 vaccine mandates have become a hotly contested issue, as coronavirus cases and hospitalizations rebound nationwide, driven by the highly contagious delta variant and unswerving vaccine hesitancy. New York City will soon be the first major U.S. city to require proof of vaccination to enter restaurants, gyms and other indoor public spaces. Dr. Marty Makary, a professor at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and editor in chief of MedPage Today, argues that mandating vaccines for "every living, walking American" is, as of now, not well-supported by science. Moreover Makary, author of "The Price We Pay: What Broke American Health Care—and How to Fix It," has concerns about the two-dose vaccine regimen for young people.

[

Read: Should K-12 Schools Mandate COVID Vaccines for Eligible Kids? ]

As told to Lindsay Lyon as part of Two Takes, a U.S. News series examining opinions about key issues. Responses have been edited for length and clarity.
Should all Americans be required to get the COVID-19 vaccine?

No. As a physician with a lot of experience dealing with patients who don't follow what we ask them to do, I believe you win more bees with honey than fire.

The vaccines are so good at protecting against death from COVID-19 that those who are immune can feel good about living life without having to worry about becoming severely ill. Vaccines downgrade the infection to a mild seasonal virus – one we must learn to live with for years to come.

[

OPINION: Why COVID-19 Vaccines Should Be Required for All Americans ]

Those who choose not to get vaccinated are making a poor health decision at their own individual risk. They pose no public health threat to those already immune. Would we be so stern toward people making similar or worse health choices to smoke, drink alcohol or not wear a helmet when riding a bike? Over 85,000 Americans die annually from alcohol, yet we don't have the same public health fervor or requirements to save those lives. Let's encourage vaccination rather than activate the personal liberty culture wars that result in people becoming more entrenched in their opposition.

The notion that we have to vaccinate every living, walking American – and eventually every newborn – in order to control the pandemic is based on the false assumption that the risk of dying from COVID-19 is equally distributed in the population. It's not. We have always known that it's very hard for the virus to hurt someone who is young and healthy. And that's still the case. While vaccine requirements for health care workers make sense, we would never extend those requirements outside of health care for, say, the flu shot. We'd simply state to the public: Those who avoid the flu shot do so at their own risk.
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1130

Post by isha »

Lots of countries including UK, Israel, Netherlands, France, Italy, Singapore, maybe even whole EU (soon), banning flights from South Africa because of B1.1.529 or Nu variant. South Africa has done a great job tracking this variant and releasing info so fast. As far as I can make out it is less than 100 samples including those in Singapore and Botswana (but I am not certain about that).

I am wondering what the countries banning flights now are going to do about flights from other places when it is revealed quite soon, I imagine, that it is already in other countries. Like Belgium etc.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
User avatar
Banshee Bones
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:30 am

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1131

Post by Banshee Bones »

I believe Scotty was previously asked for examples of Nphet, Pfizer, etc, declaring that the vaccines effectveness degrades after only three months from around the time the vaccines first became available (or before) I believe Scotty never provided those examples.

I've never had a flu shot that needed to be topped up after three months. All of this "we all knew" carry on is retroactive rationalisation. We knew nothing of the sort.

The reality is the vaccines have not have the effect that was assumed in terms of suppression or longevity, so we can rule out reliance on them as a path back to normality. The path back to normality now is just normality itself.
User avatar
Scotty
Posts: 994
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:20 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1132

Post by Scotty »

schmittel wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:15 pm What they are not effective at is protection from contracting the disease. i.e immunisation, or to put it another way - vaccination. That is equally clear for all to see.
You disagree with the latest studies published in the BMI then? Have you any research or data to support your claim? Stamping your feet and demanding vaccines don't prevent immunisation is well and good but if you're going to contradict the BMI you need to show something credible to support your claim.
schmittel wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:15 pm Are you trying to claim that pre Covid the accepted definition (and your understanding) of vaccination was protection from asymptomatic and severe cases of a disease?

Because that's insane.
MMR wanes unless you get a booster. It doesn't giver everlasting protection. Same for the polio 'vaccine', same for tetanus 'vaccine', same for Hepatitus B 'vaccine', same for whooping cough 'vaccine', same for the influenza 'vaccine'. They all wane. You can now add the covid vaccine to the list. Why this is so hard to grasp (or acknowledge) is beyond me.
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1133

Post by isha »

Well I for one am very grateful to our vaccination overlords that I am not compelled to take a MMR, Polio, tetanus, Hep B, and whooping cough vaccine every 5 to 6 months. Phew. But don't give them any ideas! :(
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
schmittel
Verified Username
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1134

Post by schmittel »

Scotty wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:46 pm You disagree with the latest studies published in the BMI then? Have you any research or data to support your claim? Stamping your feet and demanding vaccines don't prevent immunisation is well and good but if you're going to contradict the BMI you need to show something credible to support your claim.
not ignoring this, going to get back to you on it when i've read it. In the meantime...
Scotty wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:46 pmMMR wanes unless you get a booster. It doesn't giver everlasting protection. Same for the polio 'vaccine', same for tetanus 'vaccine', same for Hepatitus B 'vaccine', same for whooping cough 'vaccine', same for the influenza 'vaccine'. They all wane. You can now add the covid vaccine to the list. Why this is so hard to grasp (or acknowledge) is beyond me.
I asked you a pretty simply question. Nothing about waning or boosters. I am well aware that plenty of real vaccines such as MMR require boosters, because the highly effective immunity they provide wanes.

I'll ask you an even simpler question, one that is harder to deflect:

Do you believe these Covid-19 vaccines are highly effective at providing immunity against Covid-19?
User avatar
Scotty
Posts: 994
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:20 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1135

Post by Scotty »

schmittel wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:56 pm Do you believe these Covid-19 vaccines are highly effective at providing immunity against Covid-19?
Yes, I do now, after reading the BMI article above which you've said you'll read too and also this article published in The Lancet which shows that although viral loads can peak as high in vaccinated as in the unvaccinated, those viral load peak slower and decline faster with vaccinated individuals - which means they are contagious for a much shorter time than the unvaccinated.

These are both relatively new studies, the BMI one only published Wednesday, is particularly good as it had a huge 83,000 case cohort. It shows that while the vaccine starts to wane after only a couple of weeks it does offer protection for +180 days and that the level of protection at 3 months is still 3-4 times higher than it is by 6 months.

If you read them both, and understand them, and believe them, then the only logical conclusion you can come to is that the vaccines are effective at providing immunity. Are they as effective as other vaccines for other diseases? I don't know. They're certainly more effective than not getting vaccinated at all.



Now, I'm off to Glasgow for the weekend to watch some football. Laters!
schmittel
Verified Username
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1136

Post by schmittel »

Scotty wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:52 pm Yes, I do now, after reading the BMI article above which you've said you'll read too and also this article published in The Lancet which shows that although viral loads can peak as high in vaccinated as in the unvaccinated, those viral load peak slower and decline faster with vaccinated individuals - which means they are contagious for a much shorter time than the unvaccinated.

These are both relatively new studies, the BMI one only published Wednesday, is particularly good as it had a huge 83,000 case cohort. It shows that while the vaccine starts to wane after only a couple of weeks it does offer protection for +180 days and that the level of protection at 3 months is still 3-4 times higher than it is by 6 months.

If you read them both, and understand them, and believe them, then the only logical conclusion you can come to is that the vaccines are effective at providing immunity. Are they as effective as other vaccines for other diseases? I don't know. They're certainly more effective than not getting vaccinated at all.



Now, I'm off to Glasgow for the weekend to watch some football. Laters!
Interesting you say "Yes, I do now, after reading the BMI article above", as that concurs with my understanding that you have hitherto been arguing their effectiveness on the grounds that they prevent severe infection/ICU etc.

I guess it also confirms that you previously had doubts about the effectiveness in providing immunity.

I'd agree with you that in immunisation terms "They're certainly more effective than not getting vaccinated at all" but that's a very different statement from saying they are highly effective at providing immunity.

Enjoy your weekend!
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1137

Post by isha »

:roll: It's the BMJ. J!

I feel like I have been hearing about BMI all day.

Whatever effect mRNA shots have on an individual basis, which I have always said they looked like they had some benefit, they do not have an epidemiological rationale as they do not stop transmission. If people cast their mind back I said long ago that one of my science-y sons asked me was I prepared to forego individual benefit for demographic reasons, because that has long been my concern.

None of the actions of the present mRNA shots justify mandates and certainly not compulsion.

There is an outstanding issue which is that the injections may put selective pressure on the virus to mutate to avoid vaccines. For this reason one never vaccinates mass populations at the height of viral presence in the community of a highly mutable virus. Time will tell as to whether or not the spike protein mutates, will mutate or has mutated to avoid vaccine acquired antibodies. Indeed, it may shortly be telling - the cases of Nu have been in vaccinated people.

On a personal note I have had a small victory - my double vaccinated children have said they are reluctant to take booster and will give it great consideration. They are all very athletic healthy young people and I am relieved, as the constant stories of young people getting cardiac problems has been very troubling to me. And one has said he will march with me if they are ever made compulsory as Austria and Germany are indicating.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
User avatar
Del.Monte
Verified Username
Posts: 4930
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:11 pm
Location: The Sunny South East

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1138

Post by Del.Monte »

Whatever happened to the winding up of NPHET?
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/n ... 95801.html

Just goes to show up the shambolic nonsense at the heart of government.
'no more blah blah blah'
User avatar
Memento Mori
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:22 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1139

Post by Memento Mori »

Is this the thread to talk about the new variant or is there somewhere better?
User avatar
Banshee Bones
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:30 am

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1140

Post by Banshee Bones »

Want to have a crack at giving us the effective lifetimes of all of those vaccines?

Are of them around 3 months?
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1141

Post by isha »

Memento Mori wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:37 pm Is this the thread to talk about the new variant or is there somewhere better?
Would likely be better in a new thread, I think?

(Oh, after writing that I thought of the pun, a Nu thread, but I know some people might find that facetious so I will resist. Not :P )

Anyways Jaypurs I hope it is not the real thing coming over the horizon and will prove to be more infectious (as it seems already) but less virulent. Fingers crossed.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1142

Post by PureIsle »

It appears at least some doctors were convinced by the narrative at the time, that the vax would prevent transmission ... he says so in this interview and gives it as the reason he took both jabs ......




Indeed what else were we supposed to believe when we were told daily we had to protect others from our unclean state by taking the jab to cleanse us?
User avatar
Memento Mori
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:22 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1143

Post by Memento Mori »

isha wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:42 pm Would likely be better in a new thread, I think?

(Oh, after writing that I thought of the pun, a Nu thread, but I know some people might find that facetious so I will resist. Not :P )

Anyways Jaypurs I hope it is not the real thing coming over the horizon and will prove to be more infectious (as it seems already) but less virulent. Fingers crossed.
Thread here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1029

Not to back seat mod but it does sound significant enough for its own thread with vaccine-specific stuff to remain here.
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2756
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1144

Post by kadman »

Any one here ever hear this term before, its new to me I heard it today.
A work colleague of my wifes has a friend who is a nurse and she was called for her booster shot.

But she was told its not the booster, its a "top up shot" and she will be called for a booster shot in April. :? :?
User avatar
Memento Mori
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:22 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1145

Post by Memento Mori »

As a young healthy person, I have to say I do not feel it is morally licit to take a third booster vaccine when there are so many vulnerable people in poorer countries who have not even had a single jab yet.
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1146

Post by PureIsle »

Memento Mori wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:26 pm As a young healthy person, I have to say I do not feel it is morally licit to take a third booster vaccine when there are so many vulnerable people in poorer countries who have not even had a single jab yet.
It would be nice if we had the option to donate our shots to some other country.
It could be equally applied to those who want no jabs and those who do not want to take subsequent jabs.
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2756
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1147

Post by kadman »

I'm ging to donate all my jabs to Scotty, as it looks as tho he is going to need them,
i might hold one back in case I have to be jabbed to go to my sons wedding next year :lol: :lol:
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1148

Post by PureIsle »

For those who might have an interest, Ivor Cummins' film, Covid Chronicles, is now available.

Nothing really controversial in it that I can recall.
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1149

Post by PureIsle »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland ... -1.4737681

N.I. sees a big jump in first dose jabs after the 'covid-pass' introduction was announced.

So coercion does work and works very well it appears.

One thing I would love to ask Dr. McBride (Northern Ireland’s chief medical officer) about is his statement
“I think people have delayed and I think people do recognise the fact that it is really, really important to get your vaccine, not just to protect yourself but others,”
more people, more people like me, will feel more confident going out into hospitality knowing that everyone has either been vaccinated or has had a lateral flow test and it’s not infectious
Is it that he does not know that jabbed persons can be spreaders of the virus and can be infected or is he deliberately telling lies?

In truth I am unsure which is the worse of those two. :o :shock: :?

Of course if he admitted that jabbed persons can be infected and spread the virus he could have no scientific basis for the 'covid pass' introduction.
490808
Posts: 1487
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:10 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1150

Post by 490808 »

more people, more people like me, will feel more confident going out into hospitality knowing that everyone has either been vaccinated or has had a lateral flow test and it’s not infectious”
Poor use of English for an explanation like that but I think or changes the meaning from what you want it to mean.
Post Reply