Welcome to GUBU.ie - if you're new here check out Housekeeping for more info. Any queries contact us.

Vaccine megathread

All things COVID
316670
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:26 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1201

Post by 316670 »

Unvaccinated master race December report: Trust the science but not if the scientists are African edition
Omicron FUD levels ramped up in the west and meanwhile Africa wondering WTF is all the fuss about, the UK being proactive and rolling out boosters every 3 months now, with hard work and max panic spread by the media i imagine they can get that down to 1 month by next summer.
The good news is many are starting to realise its bollox and the number of unvaccinated will now only rise as you need a booster to be fully vaccinated, even some scientists in the west are now calling it out.
Image
To no one surprise Omicron has the same effects as vaccine nasty adverse reactions, the powers that be are creating an out for themselves, and the reason they are ramping up pressure to get 100% vaccinated is once the bodies start dropping and its only vaccinated and not unvaccinated getting ill. they going to have some serious problems on their hands explaining that away.
See you in January and we shall see if more footballers and fans are dropping, i sadly suspect they will.
Samson
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:20 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1202

Post by Samson »

Sign me up for a booster, after seeing this i'v full confidence in them
User avatar
Banshee Bones
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:30 am

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1203

Post by Banshee Bones »

Every time they let that fella out you realise the most powerful man on the planet is in his dotage

The Chinese must be laughing their arses off
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1204

Post by PureIsle »

Initial news from S.A. indicates that having been previously infected with Sars-Cov-2 is not going to protect you from Omicron variant.
They report that this one evades the natural immunity built from previous infection.

No news yet on how sever the result might be or how susceptible to infection the vaccinated persons are.

We will have to wait for a few weeks I expect and see how countries with high vax rates make out with this one.

John Campbell has done a video on the initial report from S.A.
765489

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1205

Post by 765489 »

Thought this was very funny.

https://www.rte.ie/news/newslens/2021/1 ... n-vaccine/

Italian tries to dodge Covid jab using fake arm

An Italian man who wanted a coronavirus vaccine certificate without actually having the jab tried to play the system by presenting health workers with a fake arm, an official said today.

Despite the realistic skin colour, nobody was fooled by the silicone limb, and the man - in his 50s - was reported to local police following the incident last night in Biella, northwest Italy.
User avatar
Wibbs
Verified Username
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:43 am

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1206

Post by Wibbs »

kadman wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:09 am I was a bit surprised at the numbers that got covid after the vaccine. I didn't think that could happen.
A lot of that is down to how the vaccines were sold to the public by governments and the media and the general perception that vaccine equals non infection. Breakthrough infections happen with all vaccines pretty much, the percentage of which varies. What the vaccines did and this is clearly demonstrated by results was to lower the risk of serious illness and death. In some ways we might better regard them as a preemptive treatment as it were. The other general and understandable perception is get vaccinated, sorted for years, if not life as most of the vaccines we get as kids act like that.

If you look at the narrative of boosters, you will see in media and actual scientific papers that waning antibody levels mean more infection. Which is true. In pretty much every case they also say almost as an aside that the original dose(s) remain strong at reducing serious illness and death. Which is also true. With the caveat that the elderly, the immunosuppressed and the chronically ill lose that latter protection more quickly. Which is not a shock. This is not a novel discovery. Immune memory declines with age and bad health. The production of T cells alone drops off in people after their thirties and really drops off in the 60+ demographic. They're the people who most need boosters, just like they were the people who most needed the vaccines in the first place. In Ireland 90% of all deaths from covid were in those over 65. 40% of all deaths in Ireland were in those over 85. And again it worked. The age profile in hospitals in countries with high vaccination rates has shifted downwards.

We can never drive this pox into extinction, or it's extremely unlikely. Comparisons to smallpox or polio are daft. The only way we can move forward IMHO is by living with it. Vaccinate the population older than 30 and under that age if immunosuppressed and the like in a one off run(unless a radically different variant comes along). Give boosters to those over 60 and those with chronic health conditions. The vast majority of people will then get a "bug going around" in the winter, bitch and moan and take a few days off and the vulnerable will be protected. Essentially what we already do with influenza. And we don't lockdown societies for that unless we saw a very nasty version coming to you from a Chinese pig farm.

We also need to build something like "fever hospital" capacity. Not so much for this pox, but covid really showed how vulnerable modern medicine is to even slight pressure and we need to learn from that. Covid 19 is demonstrably the least dangerous and fatal pandemic in world history and it fucked us. If it were a novel form of smallpox that came from a cattle feedlot in the US or the old style one fell out of a lab somewhere? Well it would make covid and all the disruption look like a wonderful sun holiday where it rained one morning. Instead of a 0.7% fatality rate in the over 65's, it would be a 25-30% fatality rate in every age group, with another 25-30% buggered for life and the rest out of action for weeks. Utter gamechanging, end of days stuff for the modern world. And something like that will happen. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but unless we reduce the world population and radically change how we produce our food it's coming.

Yep food. We all know the story of when Europeans went to the Americas and massively reduced their populations because of the Old World diseases we brought along with us. What few ask is why was there no New World plagues** that came back in the other direction? The reason was food. Specifically domesticated food animals. In the Americas the only domesticated animals were the dog and in the south the llama and the guinea pig. That's it. No pigs, goats, horses, geese, ducks, chickens, cattle etc. Where do the zoonotic viruses come from? That list with some mixing from wild animal foods. HIV and Ebola came from the latter. You want to build a 100% organic virus production lab for the craic? Keep pigs and chickens/ducks in overcrowded tight quarters living on top of each other with humans going in and out and wait... A wet market just brings it to the boil even more quickly. If all humans decided tommorow to be vegans(couldn't do it myself) the incidence of viruses would drop off a cliff and even new flu strains would vanish.



** with the possible exception of syphilis
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
schmittel
Verified Username
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1207

Post by schmittel »

Good post Wibbs, but far too much common sense for this thread.
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1208

Post by isha »

Personally I think there has been lots of sense and interesting and different perspectives in the thread already.

As for these vaccines and it being sensible to administer to x or y cohort, that can only ever be legitimately/morally done if it is wholly voluntary.
Where we are at now with effective coercion and compulsion on the horizon is absolutely astonishing (to me anyway). Thankfully most people I know still agree that taking any substance into your body is a voluntary choice and should never be coerced via any economic or social pressure. It is such a relief to have loved ones say the simple words as I heard today - ''It is absolutely your choice and no one else's bloody business.''

Another interesting area I keep in mind when looking at this current subject is Biopolitics. (Though I loathe Foucault there are other important contributors to this idea.) I think it is very much in play at the moment. I think that among the objectors to coercive administrative policies to encourage vaccination are a cohort of people who believe (like I do) that we are individuals, with inherent value and a sense of meaning beyond our contribution to the herd. We are not merely an aggregate to be managed by technocrats in the interest of the greater good.



If anyone is ever interested in seeing some recording of some adverse events, this account on Twitter posts references to official reports of individual instances and links to some wider studies on reactions. Today there has been a lot of mask posts but if one goes back further there are many many individual cases of severe adverse reactions.
It amazes me that these factual events are not being seriously looked at more broadly.
If a substance has even the slightest possibility of an adverse effect on the health of another it cannot be compelled in any way. If there was a big jar in every town containing a million sweets and a few of the sweets were made of cyanide, could one compel people to dip in and take a chance to keep their job, no matter how small the odds of them getting the cyanide sweet?

https://twitter.com/DrJohnB2
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
User avatar
Wibbs
Verified Username
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:43 am

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1209

Post by Wibbs »

isha wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:22 pm If there was a big jar in every town containing a million sweets and a few of the sweets were made of cyanide, could one compel people to dip in and take a chance to keep their job, no matter how small the odds of them getting the cyanide sweet?
A better analogy might be if there were two big jars containing a million sweets, one had a thousand laced with cyanide, the other had two hundred thousand. Which would you choose to dip into?

All vaccines carry risk, but disease carries more. That's the risk/benefit equation at work. This goes double for vulnerable members of society. If someone at 20 or 30 and healthy and not obese doesn't want a vaccine I say meh for the most part. If someone over 60 or with underlying conditions doesn't I consider them a moron to be frank. The risk/benefit equation is against them. Just like the annual flu vaccine. If there were such a thing as a breast cancer vaccine I wouldn't take it. The chance of me getting breast cancer is tiny. If I were a woman with a family history of the scourge I'd be holding out my arm pronto.

I am vehemently against forced vaccinations against covid. On the other hand and being honest if this were smallpox, I'd be lining up to hold naysayers down and jab them with extreme prejudice*, or lock them away so they'd have little chance to spread it. But it's not, so I wouldn't.

I have been very clear - elsewhere as it were.. ;) that after doing my own research and looking at actual studies I chose not to take any mRNA tech vaccines, even though both viralvector vaccines had higher risks of clotting in some people(albeit a tiny percentage and mostly much younger than me, and female). I will not take an mRNA booster and will not be forced into it. I will happily take a viralvector booster. Now if the mRNA was the only game in town anywhere I would take another look at my position, but it's not.

I'm not even close to an "anti vaxxer". I consider vaccination to be one of the single most important inventions in human history. Alongside clean water and antibiotics it's one of the main reasons for the longevity and massive dropoff in child mortality we've become used to. However by taking my currently nope to mRNA tech vaccines position I've had some lose the bloody plot in indignation. Mostly people who couldn't spell "cohort", never mind knew what it meant eighteen months ago, so I didn't feel too bad. :D







*and if we want to talk side effects of vaccines. That one put one in three in bed for a week and one in a thousand in hospital and killed a few unfortunate souls with it. Still a way better risk/benefit than catching the disease itself.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1210

Post by isha »

Which would you choose to dip into? - Wibbs
Choose is the operative word.

I think the risk/benefit analysis is wholly for the individual to calculate. I am far from 30 and much nearer to your 60 year old cut off threshold for being a moron to not take the vaccine, but I do not want it. And I do not regard myself as a moron. I make similar risk/benefit calculations when it comes to not smoking, going for walks every day, driving etc etc.
The disease risk is vastly stratified - when I show my young adult children the stats re their age groups they have been shocked, as the public messaging on Infection Fatality Risk is way too low resolution.
And these shots do not stop incubation so one still accumulates some disease risk regardless of status.

I appreciate that others WANT these vaccines and I am actually very glad they are there for them to choose. My mother for example takes great relief in their existence. Weirdly, she also supports my choice, regardless - but I suppose I did not lick an obstreperous nature up off the ground. :)

A supply of viral vector boosters may be hard for you to secure - all but the mRNA are being gradually eliminated.

Here is a different sweet calculation. 100,000 sweets in a jar and 38 - 43 of them have heart inflammation in them and 100,000 young males must take a dip. That is completely immoral in my book - and yet this is where we are. And for those who might say ''mild myocarditis'' - that reminds me of '' fiery but mostly peaceful protests''. The heart is not an organ to mess about with at all.
https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-ar ... 89/6445179
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
schmittel
Verified Username
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1211

Post by schmittel »

Wibbs wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:05 pmI'm not even close to an "anti vaxxer". I consider vaccination to be one of the single most important inventions in human history. Alongside clean water and antibiotics it's one of the main reasons for the longevity and massive dropoff in child mortality we've become used to. However by taking my currently nope to mRNA tech vaccines position I've had some lose the bloody plot in indignation. Mostly people who couldn't spell "cohort", never mind knew what it meant eighteen months ago, so I didn't feel too bad. :D
I'm in a very similar position to you, albeit I was too late to get Janssen. And I'm absolutely sick to the back teeth of people who are demonstrably thick as mince lecturing me about trusting science and experts.

At this stage I am actually more scared of the divisions over vaccines and the direction of public policy response to covid than I am of covid.

I mean how did we get from this: EU Parliament Resolution 2361 on 27th January 2021:
7.3.1 ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is not mandatory and that no one is under political, social or other pressure to be vaccinated if they do not wish to do so;
7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated;
To this on 1st December 2021: EU chief open to mandatory vaccination as Omicron spreads
“I think it is understandable and appropriate to lead this discussion now, how we can encourage and potentially think about mandatory vaccination within the EU,” she added.
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1212

Post by PureIsle »

I can do no more than post the links here for others to read and make up their own minds.
My opinion is worthless; this is the work of experts in their field.

http://probabilityandlaw.blogspot.com/

PDF is here
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... accination

For those who prefer a Twitter experience here is some reading for you



Happy reading folks. ;)
knownunknown
Posts: 1872
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:55 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1213

Post by knownunknown »

PureIsle wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:18 pm I can do no more than post the links here for others to read and make up their own minds.
My opinion is worthless; this is the work of experts in their field.

http://probabilityandlaw.blogspot.com/

PDF is here
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... accination

For those who prefer a Twitter experience here is some reading for you



Happy reading folks. ;)
I watched something there recently that Isha put up a few weeks back about 'analyzing covid efficiency and safety statistics' by Norman Fenton(who is also an author of this paper here). Is it really possible that we could be wrong about the covid vaccine effectiveness? This hit me like a load of bricks.
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1214

Post by PureIsle »

2u2me wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:17 am I watched something there recently that Isha put up a few weeks back about 'analyzing covid efficiency and safety statistics' by Norman Fenton(who is also an author of this paper here). Is it really possible that we could be wrong about the covid vaccine effectiveness? This hit me like a load of bricks.
Not that we were wrong ....... we could only 'believe' what we were told.

This might interest you ..... not sure if it has been posted before

https://inproportion2.talkigy.com/absol ... 21-12.html
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1215

Post by PureIsle »

This article and audio interview provide some info about what cardiologists are looking at presently - from Dr. Aseem Malhotra

https://21stcenturywire.com/2021/12/04/ ... d-to-jabs/
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1216

Post by isha »

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/c ... 19497.html
A comfortable majority believe the Covid-19 unvaccinated should face greater movement restrictions, according to a nationwide Kantar opinion poll.

In an indication that public patience is wearing thin, 56pc overall say those who have not taken a vaccine should face travel restrictions and workplace bans — a view that increases to 63pc among the fully vaccinated and 69pc of older people.
Well, after a protracted and determined campaign of hate speech and incitement to hatred, Irish politicians and their over-paid and notably under-talented narcissistic lackeys in the media - Pat Kenny, Claire Byrne et al - have finally managed to turn neighbour upon neighbour, and seen to it that a majority of the population in Ireland would like to see the 'unvaccinated' removed from public transport and their workplaces.

This preference has NO foundation in reason, there is no disease-control efficacy to the non-sterilising vaccines, and removing people from their livelihoods will achieve nothing to combat SARS COV 2. It is pure mindless scape-goating, precisely a la René Girard. It is not logic. It is the religious compulsion of a hypnotised people.
When human groups divide and become fragmented, during a period of malaise and conflicts, they may come to a point where they are reconciled again at the expense of a victim. Observers nowadays realize without difficulty, unless they belong to the persecuting group, that this victim is not really responsible for what he or she is accused of doing. The accusing group, however, views the victim as guilty, by virtue of a contagion similar to what we find in scapegoat rituals. The members of this group accuse their "scapegoat" with great fervor and sincerity. More often than not some incident, whether fantastic or trivial, has triggered a wave of opinion against this victim, a mild version of mimetic snowballing and the victim mechanism.
- Girard
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1217

Post by PureIsle »

As long as 'they' (combined politicians, media etc.) keep the focus on the unvaccinated 'they' are not the object of the rage of the vaccinated.

It really is a situation worthy of study - if anyone is suitably removed from the situation to be able to look dispassionately at what is occurring.

Until the vaccinated come to their senses I see no good outcome for society.
Even then - when the vaxxed do come to their senses - it is likely they will violently react against those who have fooled them.

We might well go from tyranny to anarchy to societal collapse ......
Last edited by PureIsle on Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1218

Post by kadman »

Its an absolute joke that the vaccinated are demanding this and that.
My wife went to a wedding event yesterday at a large venue of over 100 people inside. She is vaccinated .
She was with another person, and the only 2 who were wearing a mask. No distancing, no mask wearing. No distance between the tables.
Easy access to the bar, and no digital cert inspections at all, and no mention of vaccinated or otherwise.

Its a complete joke that crazy rules are being demanded by the government and vaccinated, but in reality the people have become tired of all the bullshit regarding the restrictions, and dont really care either way.
By the law of averages 95 people of the 100 in attendance were vaccinated, and the only thing they observed was who was getting the next drink. They didn't give a shite about anything else, yet me observing the best options for me being unvaccinated, but I am a leper.
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1219

Post by isha »

Mike Ryan of the WHO says there is no evidence that getting boosters into healthy people is useful re Omicron.

Professor Andrew Pollard - who helped invent the AZ vaccine - said in May 2021 that vaccinating children and low risk groups before vaccinating vulnerable groups in the developing world is immoral.
He was roundly ignored back then - will Mike Ryan be ignored now? You can put your money on it that he will.

https://news.sky.com/video/covid-19-no- ... n-12483965
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
schmittel
Verified Username
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1220

Post by schmittel »

Odd decision banning NPHET from talking to the media without government permission.

Much easier to "listen to the experts" if they're not censored.
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1221

Post by PureIsle »

isha wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:32 pm Mike Ryan of the WHO says there is no evidence that getting boosters into healthy people is useful re Omicron.

Professor Andrew Pollard - who helped invent the AZ vaccine - said in May 2021 that vaccinating children and low risk groups before vaccinating vulnerable groups in the developing world is immoral.
He was roundly ignored back then - will Mike Ryan be ignored now? You can put your money on it that he will.

https://news.sky.com/video/covid-19-no- ... n-12483965
I do not trust Mike Ryan ..... I suspect an ulterior motive for this statement.

On another matter here is Gunner in Aus NT being his usual self

User avatar
Memento Mori
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:22 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1222

Post by Memento Mori »

Blaming the unvaccinated makes no sense. Except when you realise that those with only two jabs will be deemed "unvaccinated" soon.
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1223

Post by kadman »

It looks like we will shortly be at a crossroads where your vaccination will be updated monthly. Once you dont appear for your monthly jab, then you fall into the unvaccinated like the rest of us really unvaccinated lepers, and then lose the privileges you got for entering pubs, when you were first vaccinated.

How will you vaccinated feel then, that you have been placed into the unvaxxed category. Or will you rock up to the vaccination clinic on an ongoing basis?
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1224

Post by PureIsle »

kadman wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:33 pm It looks like we will shortly be at a crossroads where your vaccination will be updated monthly. Once you dont appear for your monthly jab, then you fall into the unvaccinated like the rest of us really unvaccinated lepers, and then lose the privileges you got for entering pubs, when you were first vaccinated.

How will you vaccinated feel then, that you have been placed into the unvaxxed category. Or will you rock up to the vaccination clinic on an ongoing basis?
Oh they will drop in to 'the booster clinic' on their way to the rave or party or pub or whatever.
Heck maybe the pubs could expand their business by offering discounted beer with every jab!
That will sort it. ;)
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#1225

Post by PureIsle »

I watched this today



It seems to be very credible.
Post Reply