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Vaccine megathread

All things COVID
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Guburnor
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Vaccine megathread

#1

Post by Guburnor »

There are few vaccine threads largely arguing the same points. Use this thread for general vaccine chat. Thanks!
kadman
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#2

Post by kadman »

I would like to ask where is a trustworthy site regarding research studies into all things covid.
Would https://www.bmj.com/company/global-heal ... es-2021-2/ be regarded as being one.
thankyou
NotThatDevnull
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Re: Vaccine passports could create 'two-tier society'

#3

Post by NotThatDevnull »

GrowlerG wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:37 pm That means it's still effective just less effective with the new strain.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/englis ... 021-08-03/
Reuters cant be trusted when it come to Covid and Vaccines, they are seriously compromised
NotThatDevnull
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Re: Why no outrage?

#4

Post by NotThatDevnull »

Plover1958 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:19 pm I think we get it. You're against the vaccines. :roll:
Not a bit against vaccines, i have had my fair share down the years, but i first want to know its tried and vigorously tested before i take it.
India has low vaccination rate of about 8% yet cases are dropping faster than in the heavily vaccinated west.
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I wonder why?
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine passports could create 'two-tier society'

#5

Post by Scotty »

NotThatDevnull wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:26 pm Like the multiple lock downs worked so well.
The lockdowns worked EXACTLY as expected. They slowed the spread of the virus which reduced hospital and ICU numbers accordingly. Nothing more, nothing less.
NotThatDevnull
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Re: Vaccine passports could create 'two-tier society'

#6

Post by NotThatDevnull »

Scotty wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:53 pm The lockdowns worked EXACTLY as expected. They slowed the spread of the virus which reduced hospital and ICU numbers accordingly. Nothing more, nothing less.
How's Sweden doing now compared to Ireland?
Those of a nervous disposition can stay at home with the curtains draw if they like, the rest of us will getting on with living life.
NotThatDevnull
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Re: Covid Chat Fatigue

#7

Post by NotThatDevnull »

SeanCena wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:30 pm Just my 2c, there is a discussion, and then there is people offering an opinion being confronted by fake screenshots, hundred word strawmen, and hyperbole beyond belief. I dont report because everyone is entitled to say what they want, but it just makes me disengage - i don't have the will or time to engage with those who are so entrenched in their belief that nothing short of Death itself writing a post would open their minds slightly.
This attitude is now growing in the vaccinated, its a sense of "maybe there is some truth to the vaccine dangers, best to ignore and hope it is not true and just in case it is, it would be best if everyone got the vaccine so if it goes south we are all in it together".
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Elwood_Blues
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#8

Post by Elwood_Blues »

Have to give the government kudos for how the vaccine roll out has been going. I know they've buggered up other things and some counties have had delays but overall the process has been really good. Fair play to the people working in the vaccination centers too..
Just wanted to bring a bit of positivity to the thread...
NotThatDevnull
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#9

Post by NotThatDevnull »

Anyone not concerned is insane, still in trials, Thalidomide anyone?
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Guburnor
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#10

Post by Guburnor »

NotThatDevnull wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:20 pm Anyone not concerned is insane, still in trials, Thalidomide anyone?
MOD NOTE: In future can you please post proper links to wherever you are getting this sort of thing from eg https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04470427 - thanks
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#11

Post by Scotty »

NotThatDevnull wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:20 pm Thalidomide anyone?
Thalidomide? lol... that was 50 years ago buddy. Medicine has advanced just a little bit since then.

Telling though that you had nothing more recent to bring up to make your point.
NotThatDevnull
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#12

Post by NotThatDevnull »

Scotty wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:39 pm Thalidomide? lol... that was 50 years ago buddy. Medicine has advanced just a little bit since then.

Telling though that you had nothing more recent to bring up to make your point.
Its the most well know, but plenty of others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs
https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-a ... ug-recalls
Post-marketing withdrawal of 462 medicinal products because of adverse drug reactions: a systematic review of the world literature
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740994/
https://medshadow.org/bitter-pills-popu ... ed-market/
On and on it goes, but some people just hope for the best with these vaccines still in the trail phase, let them at it, i will wait and see.

Isotretinoin (Accutane)
For those dealing with severe nodular acne that didn’t respond to other treatments, Accutane offered the promise of clear skin. Manufactured by Roche and available in the US since 1982, the pills were taken over a period of several months, and were known to cause severe birth defects. Users had to pledge to use two forms of birth control and avoid pregnancy during and up to one month after an Accutane regimen.

While the birth defect link was well-known, later lawsuits against Roche contended that in some people, Accutane use was linked to inflammatory bowel disease, ulcerative colitis, Crohn’s disease, and increased instances of suicidal thoughts and/or actions. According to a Bloomberg report, more than 16 million people used Accutane between1982 and‘til 2009. That year, Roche stopped manufacturing Accutane, claiming that increased competition from generic drugs affected sales. A report in the Federal Register a year later noted that the company stopped manufacturing the medications — but not for safety or effectiveness reasons.

Valdecoxib (Bextra) and Rofecoxib (Vioxx)
Both these products were NSAIDs, manufactured by Pfizer and Merck, respectively. Bextra was prescribed to treat the aches, inflammation and stiffness from osteoarthritis (OA) and adult rheumatoid arthritis (RA), and also for menstrual cramps. Similarly, Vioxx treated OA, adult RA, and painful periods, but it was also approved to help some kinds of juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, acute pain in adults and migraines. Very quickly Bextra use became linked to higher rates of severe cardiac events such as stroke, heart attacks, and death, as well as rare, serious, and potentially fatal skin reactions, according to the FDA. It was eventually pulled from the market in 2005 after being FDA-approved just 4 years earlier. Vioxx, available from 1999 to 2004 and used by an estimated 20,000 Americans, more than 20,000 million people around the world, was also connected to a higher risk of developing a serious cardiac issues including heart attack, stroke, and/or death. Merck withdrew it in September 2004

Sibutramine (Meridia) and Fenfluramine (Pondimin)
With so many people obese or overweight, these pills offered another tool to help shed weight, along with the standard recommendations of a healthy diet and increased physical activity. Both Meridia, made by Abbott Laboratories and available from 1997-2010, and Pondimin, available from 1973-1997 and produced by Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories (the pharmaceutical division of American Home Products Corporation), were believed to be connected to higher risks of heart issues.

A large-scale trial linked Meridia to non-fatal strokes and heart attacks, and Abbott agreed to take the medication off the American marketplace in 1997. The FDA estimated about 100,000 people took Meridia. Pondimin was the brand name for the generic “fen” half of the so-called “a blockbuster” diet drug, Phen-Fen. More than 18 million prescriptions were written for the combo in 1996 alone and it was taken by about 6 million people before Pondimin was recalled in 1997. Phen-Fen was linked to both heart valve deformities and also primary pulmonary hypertension, according to research published in 1997. Pondimin left the market that year — though phentermine, the “phen” of Phen-Fen, remains available. American Home Products in 1999 agreed to pay $3.75 billion to settle about 6,500 lawsuits affecting more than 11,000 people, according to a New York Times report.

Cisapride (Propulsid)
GERD (gastroesophogeal reflux disease) happens when stomach acid or digested food backs up into the esophagus. Propulsid, made by Janssen Pharmaceutica, a part of Johnson & Johnson, and available in the U.S. from 1993 to 2000 (during which about 30 million Propulsid prescriptions were written), provided relief from the pain and burning. Yet studies showed that Propulsid caused irregular heartbeats, sometimes fatal, particularly in children being treated for spitting up. In 2000, Janssen announced they would stop advertising Propulsid and make it available only through a limited program for adults, children and infants who could show that they couldn’t tolerate other medications to treat their GERD and its related problems such as failure to thrive in newborns or children or severe, chronic constipation in adults.

Efalizumab (Raptiva)
This weekly-injection medication made by Genentech was used to treat moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, a skin condition characterized by red, scaly patches. While the drug was FDA-approved in 2003, the manufacturer announced it would withdraw Raptiva in 2009 because of rare but potentially fatal brain infection called progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy (PML). In that six-year period, about 46,000 people took Raptiva; three of them were diagnosed with and died from PML, with a fourth diagnosis possibly linked to Raptiva use.

Tegaserod Maleate (Zelnorm)
Manufactured by Novartis since 2002 but discontinued in 2007, Zelnorm was marketed to women with constipation and irritable bowel syndrome. Research suggested a possible link for Zelnorm users — some 500,000 Americans alone — with a “statistically significant” risk of developing strokes, heart attacks, or other heart issues, according to a CNN report. Today, the company still provides the medication for people who are otherwise facing life-threatening health issues without it.
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#13

Post by Scotty »

NotThatDevnull wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:16 am ...some people just hope for the best with these vaccines still in the trail phase, let them at it, i will wait and see.
But you're not letting them at it? You seem to spend every waking minute posting antivax nonsense. You've allowed yourself become consumed by it all. Get out and live a little ffs and let people make their own minds up.
kadman
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#14

Post by kadman »

If we want serious discussion on this emotive topic, can we stop sticking labels like anti vax nonsense on it please. If the chap has provided links to support his views as requested by admins, is that not enough reason to discuss the findings??
JONJO THE MISER
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#15

Post by JONJO THE MISER »

I think this is a great topic to had and allowed to be had on this site, refreshing to see whatever your point of view is that this discussion is had.
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#16

Post by Scotty »

kadman wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:32 am If we want serious discussion on this emotive topic, can we stop sticking labels like anti vax nonsense on it please. If the chap has provided links to support his views as requested by admins, is that not enough reason to discuss the findings??
Have you seen some of the guff being posted? example: viewtopic.php?p=4919#p4919

I mean come on? You want this poster taken serious when he's posting this kind of nonsense? Are we now to quote Waterford Whispers as a reliable news source too?

I'm all for people expressing their opinion but there's a difference between expressing an opinion in a discussion forum and being on a one man crusade to deter people from getting vaccinated, I know which one NotThatDevnull is at. Based on the nonsense he's been posting (as seen by the example above), and make no mistake about it, nonsense is what it is, I won't be taking anything he/she has to say seriously.
kadman
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#17

Post by kadman »

I have seen lots of guff as you say. And well able to make my mind up on what I think is guff and whats not guff, and what may not be guff, and worthy of a further look at. But tagging each and every post that I dont agree with " with ridiculous labels" does not open it up for discussion. Ridiculing someone for having different views does nothing for any in depth discussion on it. I am not in fear of what others think, they are entitled to think what they want..
I want the opportunity to sort the wheat from the chaff
NotThatDevnull
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#18

Post by NotThatDevnull »

The vaccinated are scared, its becoming evident in every day life, the way they are talking about the vaccine is changing
I can see many here are now leaving Denial and entering Anger, unfortunately they are not focusing their anger on those who led them astray, but on those who ask legitimate questions about the safety of the vaccines.
I am certain that the unvaccinated will not be condescending toward the vaccinated in the coming months , the way the vaccinated are towards the unvaccinated currently, they will get plenty of support in the days ahead, we must move forward united as the true danger of these untested vaccines becomes apparent to all.
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Abella
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#19

Post by Abella »

kadman wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:32 am If we want serious discussion on this emotive topic, can we stop sticking labels like anti vax nonsense on it please. If the chap has provided links to support his views as requested by admins, is that not enough reason to discuss the findings??
Some people want to be led, they don't want to think for themselves, they don't want to hear any alternative to what they have been told and swallowed hook, line and sinker, they would rather remain ignorant than have to think.
Abella
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#20

Post by Abella »

kadman wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 9:37 am I have seen lots of guff as you say. And well able to make my mind up on what I think is guff and whats not guff, and what may not be guff, and worthy of a further look at. But tagging each and every post that I dont agree with " with ridiculous labels" does not open it up for discussion. Ridiculing someone for having different views does nothing for any in depth discussion on it. I am not in fear of what others think, they are entitled to think what they want..
I want the opportunity to sort the wheat from the chaff
Totally agree, present all the evidence and then i shall make a informed decision, lets be honest would you trust the chancers in FF/FG to make a major decision in any aspect of your life, yet people are trusting these same chancers with the vaccine.
We know they are corrupt, yet people are trusting them regards the vaccines, very strange to say the least.
NotThatDevnull
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#21

Post by NotThatDevnull »

"95% of the severe patients are vaccinated".
"85-90% of the hospitalizations are in Fully vaccinated people."
Boosters forever? Roll the dice and hope you dont eventually get a adverse reaction?
Are we seeing vaccine-induced enhancement of susceptibility to virus infection? We will soon find out here, Israel is at lest 1 month ahead of Ireland in the vaccine rollout
NotThatDevnull
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#22

Post by NotThatDevnull »



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody- ... nhancement
This was predicted by many and would look like its happening
In Gibraltar, 99% of the population vaccinated; COVID infection rate climbs.
In Iceland over 75% of population vaccinated; infection rate climbs.
As we know Israel vaccinated to a high percentage of population while Palestine did not and look at he following graph
Image
Could Novavax not preceding with their vaccine be a admittance that there is serious problems with the currents vaccines?

Are the vaccines are now the cause of the Covid infection rates rising?

Is this a sign that the vaccines are a failure and efforts are now underway to find a alternative treatment for Covid?
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08 ... -s-betting
One way or another its going to be a interesting few months ahead for those vaccinated.
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Wibbs
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#23

Post by Wibbs »

NotThatDevnull wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:55 pm In Gibraltar, 99% of the population vaccinated; COVID infection rate climbs.
In Iceland over 75% of population vaccinated; infection rate climbs.
As we know Israel vaccinated to a high percentage of population while Palestine did not and look at he following graph
This is a complex problem and simple answers don't cut it so well. For a start it's a coronavirus. Before it showed up there was no vaccine for coronaviruses in humans(IIRC there was one for cattle?). They're a harder nut to crack for vaccine makers and outside of SARS and MERS, which were contained, there had been no coronvirus of concern in the human population. Something like 10% of "common colds" are coronaviruses and that's a few days of a sniffle and snot overload. Vaccines for potential threats have no money in them so research was sidelined. SARS being a good example there.

Secondly the vaccines reduce the rate of serious illness and death in the vaccinated population. Unlike most other vaccines it seems they don't do much for reduction of infection or transmission itself. Note in both those examples infection rate climbed, what about deaths and hospitalisation in the vaccinated? However reducing serious illness and death is a biggie and reduces the pressure on medical services. So that's a win and people will live where they may not have.

Thirdly no matter what the vaccine you will always have a percentage of the population who don't respond to it, or respond weakly to it, or simply can't be given it. Covid itself doesn't help here as it seems long term immunity isn't in play, even with actual infection. I've read 6 months to a year. I personally know one person that has had it twice, tested too. Another who had it last year and because he has family in the medical game he was interested to see how long he showed antibodies and was tested for them. A year later he came back negative, so he could catch it again. Before being vaccinated was a thing I had both types of measles as a kid. Today many decades later I could pick up and hug a kid with full blown measles with near zero risk of catching it and it is one of the most infectious viruses aver encountered with a R0 of something like 15. Same if I had been vaccinated. I got the polio vaccine on a sugar lump as a kid and I'm still protected decades later and that pox that was once a scourge on society has pretty much vanished. Other vaccines require boosters. Tetanus an obvious one. IIRC efficacy is about ten years.

So considering the above with covid in a hypothetical nation where every single person was vaccinated, you would still get breakthrough illness that in some may lead to hospitals or even death. Doubly so in the vulnerable groups or those who were vaccinated early and the efficacy has lowered over time.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Memento Mori
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#24

Post by Memento Mori »

I was happy to get the Pfizer vaccine as the mrna vaccines do not use foetal cell lines. I think this technology is very welcome, from both a moral and scientific perspective.

However, I would have viewed vaccines as "one and done", in the way Wibbs describes and not something that has to be repeated every year for the same disease. This is of grave concern. It is noteworthy that Astrazeneca, who supplied their vaccine at cost price, are considering leaving the vaccine business altogether because they have lost money. Pfizer and Moderna have made tons of money and have increased prices, and stand to make billions for years to come. With this capitalist model, "repeat business" is something that is very much desirable and a "one and done" vaccine would not make economic sense for them. These companies need increased government oversight, or perhaps to be nationalised, in order to ensure that public health is paramount, not profit.

There is also the issue with how poorer countries are expected to afford these vaccines every year (forever?) and also fund the required infrastructure.
Windex
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#25

Post by Windex »

Wibbs wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:24 pm

So considering the above with covid in a hypothetical nation where every single person was vaccinated, you would still get breakthrough illness that in some may lead to hospitals or even death. Doubly so in the vulnerable groups or those who were vaccinated early and the efficacy has lowered over time.
I love how the media and the Vaccine makers are referring to "Breakthrough cases" just a year ago we knew this as a Vaccine failing to do the job its supposed to do, the spin machine is working overtime in pushing this narrative, we shall see how many Breakthrough cases are reported in the coming months in Ireland, now if you really want to be shocked look into how Breakthrough cases in the USA are reported, in a nut shell if you get Covid and are fully vaccinated you are unlikely to be recorded as a Covid case. Keep a eye on Israel they record all new infections and the fully vaccinate are filling up the hospitals.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ough-cases
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