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Vaccine megathread

All things COVID
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#426

Post by isha »

Scotty wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:27 am My apologies Isha, but when you said "Vaccinees carry 251 times the viral load" to whom was it in relation to? 251 times compared to what? or who?
Now. Simply now.
Versus not now.
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#427

Post by Scotty »

Vaccinees carry 251 times the viral load compared to... now.

That makes no sense.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#428

Post by isha »

Scotty wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:01 am Vaccinees carry 251 times the viral load compared to... now.

That makes no sense.
There were no vaccinees then.
Vaccinees carry 251 times more viral load compared to back then when there was no vaccine.
If you read it, first there is my phrase, a sort of highlight of findings, and then the quote continues directly after which states quite clearly that the Delta load comparison was to Mar- April 2020 viral loads.

What do you think about vaccinees carrying 251 times the viral load now compared to before we had vaccination? Seems to me it has significant implications for viral infectiousness and spread. It may explain why case numbers sometimes increase so greatly or plateau at high levels after vaccine campaigns.
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#429

Post by Scotty »

So you're not comparing them to non vaccinated, but rather comparing them to a time when no one was vaccinated? :D

Nice try but you're just digging a bigger hole.
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#430

Post by CelticRambler »

isha wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:35 am https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=3897733

Don't know if this was linked already. Preprint in Lancet from August. Study done in hospital in Vietnam. Vaccinees carry 251 times viral load.
Linked and debunked on this thread over a month ago ... :roll:

For a start, a study involving 62 people is statistically insignificant; and (as Scotty has just pointed out) there is no meaningful comparison of anything with anything. The findings are little more than a statement of fact ... but as is the way of the world these days, once these statements of fact are released into the wild, they're picked up by the do-my-own-researchers (who don't ever do any actual research), wrapped up in pseudo-science and spread around social media faster than any virus.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#431

Post by isha »

Ffs. I read the shagging paper. Vaccinees have 251 times higher viral load with Delta than anyone had with corona virus in March 2020. Now ye can run away, fingers in ears, going lalalalala for all I care, but one day in the future when this mass hypnosis is over sensible people will agree, hmmmm, that seems very significant as a point of epidemiological information.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#432

Post by isha »

Scotty wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:17 am So you're not comparing them to non vaccinated, but rather comparing them to a time when no one was vaccinated? :D

Yes. And?
You are the one who jumped in mistakenly saying I said otherwise.
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The Continental Op
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#433

Post by The Continental Op »

isha wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:48 am Yes. And?
You are the one who jumped in mistakenly saying I said otherwise.
I read it exactly the same way as Scotty and maybe we weren't the only ones?
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#434

Post by Scotty »

In my eyes comparing the data to 'non vaccinated' or comparing it to 'those before a vaccine existed' is exactly the same thing.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#435

Post by isha »

Scotty wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:46 pm In my eyes comparing the data to 'non vaccinated' or comparing it to 'those before a vaccine existed' is exactly the same thing.
You presumed I was refering to people who are non vaccinated by choice now. Which is the cohort your fact checker article references - the fact checker article was written in response to other people imcorrectly using the study to claim vaccinated have 251 times more viral load than presently unvaccinated.
I had read the article and knew it was not refering to such a comparison. My point stands. People who are vaccinated have extremely high viral loads and can therefore be superspreaders to other vaccinees, to people not vaccinated for medical reasons and to people who decline vaccines. This has important implications.
It would have been great for the vaccine story if the study had found vaccinated people have very low viral loads. It would have been great at an epidemiological level. But hey. It's not so. And that should be noted.
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#436

Post by Scotty »

OK, I've read the report myself now and I think I know where you are coming from.

The 251x times more virus load refers to those 60 odd people that were in the test, whom ALL had the DELTA variant, in comparison to virus loads taken in March 2020 of people who DID NOT have the DELTA variant. Yes?

We knew the Delta variant was stronger, so to have any relevance, we need to know the virus load of unvaccinated Delta carriers now, compared to pre Delta variants virus loads also. Just giving the vaccinated difference is meaningless.

Also, if it were the case that getting vaccinated does cause viral loads to increase greatly, and considering so many of the population are now vaccinated, I would see it as a greater incentive to get vaccinated.
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#437

Post by Scotty »

I haven't read the whole article but just on a quick search I see "Viral load is roughly 1,000 times higher in people infected with the Delta variant than those infected with the original coronavirus strain".

So if your study is correct, and vaccinated delta carriers are only 251 x times higher than non delta non vaccinated, compared to non vaccinated delta carriers which are 1000x times higher, then vaccines are a no brainer.
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#438

Post by Scotty »

Another article, 1260 times higher... .

You've really convinced me that vaccines are the way to go Isha. They reduce delta from being 1260 times higher than the old variants to being just 251 times higher. Happy days.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#439

Post by isha »

Scotty wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:54 pm OK, I've read the report myself now and I think I know where you are coming from.

The 251x times more virus load refers to those 60 odd people that were in the test, whom ALL had the DELTA variant, in comparison to virus loads taken in March 2020 of people who DID NOT have the DELTA variant. Yes?

We knew the Delta variant was stronger, so to have any relevance, we need to know the virus load of unvaccinated Delta carriers now, compared to pre Delta variants virus loads also. Just giving the vaccinated difference is meaningless.

Also, if it were the case that getting vaccinated does cause viral loads to increase greatly, and considering so many of the population are now vaccinated, I would see it as a greater incentive to get vaccinated.

I would have to look and see what the viral load differences are presently between vaccinated and unvaccinated, there may be studies, but nothing comes to mind.

Well yes, the fact that much higher viral loads than one could possibly have expected or hoped for are present in vaccinees does make it rather nerve wracking for people who are not vaccinated and could for many function as an incentive to be vaccinated to - ironically - save oneself from the vaccinated. I have been aware of this possibility for some time as it was Vanden Bossche's thesis from quite a long while ago ie that non-vaccinated would be endangered by vaccinees for this very reason. There is also the "feeling well" element in vaccinees which contributes to superspreading and continuing the pandemic.

Regardless I still don't feel inclined to get vaccinated RIGHT YET because of serious inflammatory medical history in family, the very large number of adverse events recorded which I cannot ignore, and perhaps most importantly the thesis that I feel has merit about the vaccine putting immune escape pressure on a very narrow part of the virus - the spike protein which is responsible for infectiousness - and thus logically enabling evolution of more infectious variants.
Yes, this seems that I am accepting personal risk to prevent demographic risk but it is part of my choice.

I think it is important that more voices are heard re the science of all of this, including dissonant voices. We are presently in a strange place where there is an authoritarian demand to walk in lock step and a lot of increasing censorship of scientists who ask any questions. I think we are politically in a bad time. Which may get worse.

Thats just how I see it.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#440

Post by isha »

Scotty wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 3:04 pm I haven't read the whole article but just on a quick search I see "Viral load is roughly 1,000 times higher in people infected with the Delta variant than those infected with the original coronavirus strain".

So if your study is correct, and vaccinated delta carriers are only 251 x times higher than non delta non vaccinated, compared to non vaccinated delta carriers which are 1000x times higher, then vaccines are a no brainer.
Study published 2 days ago - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 21264262v1
No difference in viral load

Study published end of July - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 21261387v1
Similar viral loads

Study mid August British Medical Journal https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074
Similar viral loads.
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#441

Post by Scotty »

Isha all three of those studies are in relation to vaccinated vrs unvaccinated.

My links above regarding virus load being 1000 times higher are delta vrs non delta and nothing to do with vaccines.
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PureIsle
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#442

Post by PureIsle »

A very very long opinion piece which might or might not be of interest to some.
I found it worth reading if only to get a sense of what some think, and I did have some thought provoking moments while reading.
Anyway, in case someone might be interested in reading ...
https://www.juliusruechel.com/2021/09/t ... -zero.html
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#443

Post by isha »



Pfizer will have to employ fewer senior scientist anti-vaxxers ;)

And Covid was ''spreading virulently in Wuhan as early as Summer 2019'' - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... 1633377843
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#444

Post by Scotty »

But we've always known that natural immunity was stronger than manufactured immunity. This is not news.
And Covid was ''spreading virulently in Wuhan as early as Summer 2019'' - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... 1633377843
This is behind a paywall. Can you share or are you only promoting the headline?
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#445

Post by isha »

Scotty wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:27 pm But we've always known that natural immunity was stronger than manufactured immunity. This is not news.

This is behind a paywall. Can you share or are you only promoting the headline?
It was not behind a paywall when I clicked the link I saw, so I did not know it is for some. I am not subscribed to the Telegraph so I don't know how I can just click on and it is there.
Why so snark? :roll:

As for natural immunity being stronger you should tell the global policy makers who seem to have forgotten.


Covid was spreading "virulently" in Wuhan as early as summer 2019 – far sooner than previously thought, according to an intelligence analysis of spending on PCR testing equipment.

A new report claims to have uncovered "notable, significant and abnormal" purchases of PCR lab equipment in the second half of that year.

Analysts trawled through PCR procurement contracts in Hubei Province, of which Wuhan is the capital, and found spending had almost doubled on the previous year.

The study by Internet 2.0, a cyber security consultancy that specialises in examining data from China, says: "We have come to the conclusion that, based on the data analysed, it suggests the virus was highly likely to be spreading virulently in Wuhan, China, as early as the summer of 2019 and definitely by the autumn."

The data and findings have been passed to US government officials amid growing speculation that the virus escaped from a lab in Wuhan and its existence was covered up for months.

According to the more accepted version of events, Covid originated in a "wet market" selling live animals in Wuhan at the beginning of December.


But the new report claims spending on PCR equipment – standard kit in laboratories for amplifying small amounts of DNA and critical in tracking Covid – in Hubei Province increased to £7.8 million in 2019 from £4 million the year before and £3.3m in 2017.

The total 2019 contract value, according to Internet 2.0, was higher than the previous two years put together. The report also found the number of PCR contracts increased from 89 in 2018 to 135.

The report's authors claim the growth in spending was accounted for by contracts at four main institutions – the Chinese Centres for Disease Control (CDC) in Hubei province, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, the Wuhan University of Science and Technology and a military hospital in Wuhan. The report says this is of huge importance because of the bodies' roles in disease control and prevention.

The report alleges that the "significant increase in spending" was noticed from the summer of 2019, beginning as early as May – seven months before public health officials in China notified the World Health Organisation (WHO) that a mysterious illness was spreading through Wuhan.

The report concludes: "We assess with high confidence that the pandemic began much earlier than China informed the WHO about Covid-19."

The analysts at Internet 2.0 carried out a "robust and exhaustive assessment" of hundreds of procurement contracts for PCR equipment found on open-sourced databases throughout the province between 2007 and 2019.

According to the report, a closer examination of spending in 2019 showed an "elevated purchasing trend" by two animal testing laboratories, the Chinese military and the CDC.

"We believe the increased spending in May suggests this as the earliest start date for possible infection," the study claims, adding: "We assess with medium confidence that the significant increase in PCR purchasing starts in July 2019."

Notable contracts found by the investigators included £35,000 spent in early November by the Wuhan institute of Virology on PCR instrumentation. One theory is that the virus leaked from its lab.


The study also raises questions about two purchases of pathogen detection equipment, totalling £205,000, made by the Wuhan CDC in September and used for the Military World Games held in the city a month later. Athletes have since claimed they fell ill with Covid-like symptoms after returning from the event.

"These findings," says the report, "challenge existing assumptions around when the pandemic began. The study concludes that a significant increase in spending in PCR equipment correlates to the spread of Covid-19."

PCR – short for polymerase chain reaction – testing has become commonplace since the start of the pandemic and is critical in tracking the virus and underpinning the isolation policy deployed by almost all governments.

In a statement, the authors David Robinson, a former Australian army intelligence officer, and Robert Potter, a cyber security expert, said: "The data directly challenges the statements by the Chinese government on when the emergence of Covid-19 occurred in Wuhan.

"The significant increase in PCR purchasing by institutions in Hubei Province starting from May 2019, and the direct change in 2019 to major purchasers being directly connected with institutions responsible for disease control and prevention point to the assessment that the pandemic began much earlier than China informed the WHO about the emergence of Covid-19."

The authors said the findings tallied with an unclassified official US intelligence assessment, published in the summer, which found the outbreak "occurred no later than November 2019", although Internet 2.0 believes it occurred some months before.


The analysts said they could offer no insight into how the virus first spread, adding: "The fact China has gone to great lengths to ensure conclusive evidence is unobtainable means unfortunately we may have to rely on third party data points. The only answer we can already rely on is China covered up early information on the virus and has been obstructive from the start."

The Telegraph attempted to contact a number of institutions named in the report on Monday, but received no response.

China has repeatedly denied that the virus originated from a lab contamination, although last week Xi Jinping, the Chinese president, said further study of its origins was needed.

In a statement, officials said the country had been "transparent" and that China had "immediately released information about the epidemic domestically and abroad, to the WHO, and the international community, and immediately determined and published the full genetic sequence of the virus".

It said the "facts are clear and stand the test of time and history".
2u2me
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#446

Post by 2u2me »

Could the vaccine be turning people into superspreaders?

It reduces the symptoms and possibly eliminates them entirely, yet we are seeing high viral loads present even in non symptomatic vaccinated people.

At least someone who is unvaccinated might experience symptoms and remove/quarantine themselves from society. Maybe that's why we're seeing such high rates of infection in the heavily vaccinated populations.

Consider a doctor working in a hospital. If she is vaccinated she has a lower chance of actually contracting the delta strain and a lower chance of experiencing serious symptoms. But if she had a breakthrough infection she would be just as infectious as an unvaccinated person, just she has a far lower chance of knowing about it(experiencing symptoms herself).
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#447

Post by isha »

Just want to add to my earlier post re Veritas exposè that, while it is true all the stuff that is revealed from.the undercover recordings, James O Keefe is an obnoxious bully, and my feelings actually went to the young scientists whose careers and lives he is ruining by dumping their private conversations into the public domain. I really abhor his methods, and wish there was another way to get to truth. Some of those chaps remind me of my boys, I would punch O Keefe in the kisser if he did that to mine.
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#448

Post by Scotty »

isha wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:07 pm James O Keefe is an obnoxious bully, and my feelings actually went to the young scientists whose careers and lives he is ruining by dumping their private conversations into the public domain.
While you repost it... the hypocrisy!!
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#449

Post by isha »

Scotty wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:52 pm While you repost it... the hypocrisy!!
Calm yourself, Scotty. Two exclamation marks is one too many.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#450

Post by isha »

https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/nyh ... ch-senare/

Sweden halts Moderna for people born after 1991. Until December 1st.
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