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Vaccine megathread

All things COVID
ancapailldorcha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#476

Post by ancapailldorcha »

isha wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:03 pm A non-sterilising vaccine will NEVER bring herd immunity.
Anti vax is just an easy meaningless slur.
It's not a slur.

No evidence I've noticed. Another anti-vaxx trope. It's easy for a reason.
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PureIsle
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#477

Post by PureIsle »

ancapailldorcha wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:15 pm It's not a slur.

No evidence I've noticed. Another anti-vaxx trope. It's easy for a reason.


Do you agree with this?
A non-sterilising vaccine will NEVER bring herd immunity.


If not please explain why.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#478

Post by isha »

PureIsle wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:34 pm Do you agree with this?



If not please explain why.
Also no mucosal immunity with the injections - for a (at least partially) respiratory virus that is not good. (Covid is also affecting endothelial cells in smooth tissue in other body organs - wherever there are ACE2 receptors, so it is not wholly a respiratory virus, though inhalation is the way most people contract the virus, and the first place it replicates usually is in the mucosal passageways.)

The injections undoubtedly counter morbidity for a while in many of the people who may have died from it - ie the elderly and immuno compromised. But I cannot understand people blindly praising it in spite of its obvious epidemiological shortcomings, reduced efficacy from that declared by its manufacturers, very short-lived effect, and huge evidence of adverse events, etc. Much less mandating it. Take it if you want. Do not cast out of society those who do not want it. I mean, FFS, some of the very injections some people are insisting be mandated are being suspended at this very moment in civilised countries.

And all of that is without considering an enormous aspect which is the possibility of vaccines creating just precisely the narrow immune pressure on a tiny part of the binding mechanism of the protein spike of the virus to cause its mutation past all vaccine efficacy. It boggles my brain!
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#479

Post by Scotty »

ancapailldorcha wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:15 pm It's not a slur.

No evidence I've noticed. Another anti-vaxx trope. It's easy for a reason.
In fairness it's the first time in ages there's actually been some debate or discussion on the thread. It's usually just Isha & Co dumping more and more anti-vax links.
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#480

Post by Scotty »

isha wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:46 pm I mean, FFS, some of the very injections some people are insisting be mandated are being suspended at this very moment in civilised countries. It boggles my brain!
Moderna is not being halted because it is highly dangerous Isha, it's currently halted becasue other options are deemed to be safer at the moment. It like if you give 50 million each of two vaccines and 5 people have a reaction to one of them... it doesn't meant that one is dangerous, it;s just not as safe. We've been through this already with AZ.
ancapailldorcha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#481

Post by ancapailldorcha »

PureIsle wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:34 pm Do you agree with this?



If not please explain why.
No. What we have is better than nothing. A vaccine that prevented transmission is the ideal but this is what we have. Spreading anti-vaxx disinformation is just reckless.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#482

Post by isha »

"Its not dangerous, its just not as safe."
Im going to gave to walk very deep into the woods to laugh loud enough at that spin..
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#483

Post by Scotty »

isha wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:29 pm "Its not dangerous, its just not as safe."
Im going to gave to walk very deep into the woods to laugh loud enough at that spin..
It's clearly gone over your head. I'll leave it there.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#484

Post by isha »

Scotty wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:32 pm It's clearly gone over your head. I'll leave it there.
No, no! I would definitely take the plane that is not dangerous, just not as safe.
Count me in. 🙄
scooby
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#485

Post by scooby »

Scotty wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:32 pm It's clearly gone over your head. I'll leave it there.
"Dangerous" is relative, although compared to other vaccines that were pulled in the past, the covid-19 vaccines certainly are more dangerous than those that were suspended indefinitely in the past, due to adverse reactions.
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PureIsle
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#486

Post by PureIsle »

ancapailldorcha wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:27 pm No. What we have is better than nothing. A vaccine that prevented transmission is the ideal but this is what we have. Spreading anti-vaxx disinformation is just reckless.
You do not agree with this
A non-sterilising vaccine will NEVER bring herd immunity.
yet you fail miserably to explain why, except to say what we have is better than nothing.

Sounds to me that you agree with the statement and are just looking for some means not to put it in writing.


It is not anti-vaccine to make factual, science-based statements.
2u2me
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#487

Post by 2u2me »

ancapailldorcha wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:06 am The vaccine slashes the risk of morbidity and mortality that covid infection entails. If enough people get vaccinated, the risk of the healthcare system being overwhelmed shrinks drastically.
What is the current risk that the healthcare system might be overwhelmed? I do remember 'flatten the curve' and we all bought in without much protest at a time when there were alot more unknowns.
ancapailldorcha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#488

Post by ancapailldorcha »

PureIsle wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:15 pm yet you fail miserably to explain why, except to say what we have is better than nothing.
I thought it was obvious. The vaccine reduces the risk of hospitalisation and death from covid. It's not perfect but it's enabled the rolling back of restrictions which is better than nothing.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#489

Post by isha »

99.7% of people over 18 vaccinated in County Waterford
And
County Waterford has highest Covid incidence at the moment.

Hope that 0.3% of typhoid Mary's have good running shoes. :shock:

Image

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40704104.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ ... -1.4699531
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#490

Post by Scotty »

isha wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:41 pm No, no! I would definitely take the plane that is not dangerous, just not as safe.
Count me in. 🙄
So by the same logic then Isha, if driving down the M50 at 300mph is considered dangerous, would you consider doing so at 275mph to be safe? Or just less dangerous? Events can have different levels of safety before they can be regarded as dangerous, just like vaccines.
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#491

Post by Scotty »

scooby wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:38 pm "Dangerous" is relative, although compared to other vaccines that were pulled in the past, the covid-19 vaccines certainly are more dangerous than those that were suspended indefinitely in the past, due to adverse reactions.
Indeed, but this isn't any other vaccine. This is an emergency vaccine produced in months instead of decades. All vaccines (there's only about 30) carry risks. But like all those other vaccines, the pro's outweigh the cons. You may be that really unlucky sod, that 1 in 50k, or 1 in 50M or whatever that things go wrong for but for the rest of us the vaccines are the path to getting back to normal.
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#492

Post by Scotty »

isha wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:10 am 99.7% of people over 18 vaccinated in County Waterford
And
County Waterford has highest Covid incidence at the moment.
So what?
ancapailldorcha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#493

Post by ancapailldorcha »

isha wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:10 am
Hope that 0.3% of typhoid Mary's have good running shoes. :shock:
Imagine being glad that people have a deadly virus.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#494

Post by isha »

Scotty wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:22 amSo what?
Here's one ''what'' - there was an argument for a while there that the unvaccinated were enabling viral mutation by going around with loads of their dirty virus, and that this was endangering everyone. Then it became apparent that viral loads and transmission are just as much a problem for the vaccinated. Now if an Irish county with perhaps among one of the globe's highest vaccination rates also has one of the highest levels of Covid in Europe that means - using the old logic - there is a lot of (often asymptomatic) incubation of potential mutation going on.

And the mutations that succeed will be those selectively directed by normal viral evolution processes at the narrow focus of the cell binding receptors of the virus's spike protein to effect vaccine escape, because that is the portion of the virus that the vaccine instructs RNA to replicate and thus people to make antibodies against - otherwise the escape mutations would not ''succeed''.
That's just one ''what''.


Here are the inventors of the Pfizer vaccine the day before yesterday, pretty much saying this is happening and will happen




But sure look it, chase the rainbow if you want. I am just observing that things are not at all as we were told they would be. New stories are having to be told all the time to cover up problems.

I know it is disappointing to many. But there have been good scientists calling this potential out for a long while. And ignored.
We went to battle with one implement, which is not as good as we hoped.

Lookit I hate this fecken thing with a passion, as I hate all diseases to be honest - but especially I hate this one as I think it is a result of human hubris and I think it will take a toll unless we wipe it out. Vaccination with these shots will NOT wipe it out. It just won't.

I think there are ways out. Thankfully the IFR of SARS COV 2 is not as high as advertised and is very low for young and healthy people. Most people will do fine. The fear being generated is very debilitating.
Natural immunity against the whole virus will build herd immunity. Children will (unfortunately) face this virus now for the whole of their lives and it is best they have good B Cell and T cell based broad immunity rather than a lifetime of mRNA injections. (I say unfortunately as I was a strong Zero Covid advocate - I think we should never have allowed this virus to spread at all, but we did for economic reasons.)
We can protect vulnerable people - we can direct vaccination only towards vulnerable cohorts, so that there is not this vaccine escape pressure being caused by mass vaccination during high viral occurrence. That is vaccinology 101. Never vaccinate mid pandemic.
We can use known and tested molecules to help people heal from infection, including prophylaxis eg with Vitamin D, aspirin even. There are lots of good potential early treatments. Mechanical ventilation has not been a good response to an inflammatory condition.
Mulprahnivir - the new Merck pill - is not great from what I can tell in that it is mutagenic and obviously has not had long term longitudinal studies - I think we should depend for now upon well-tested molecules.

If you go to page 12 and onwards of this recent UK data
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... eek_40.pdf
First of all, and more as an aside, you will see that rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated per 100,000 are paradoxical in that they are higher among vaccinated people as one goes up the age groups. If we ignore that though and look at the hospitalisations (page 14), they are higher in unvaccinated. Told ya so, says you. But look at the numbers per 100,000 cases - let's take a 50-59 year old = 35 admissions per 100,000 cases recorded. That is an admission rate of 0.04%. Look at deaths among unvaccinated - higher than vaccinated. But 11 out of 100,000 positive cases = 0.01%. Sure when you get to 80+ it is 133 per 100,000 or 0.13%. But the toll is not what is advertised in the media day in day out.

Why did Uttar Pradesh with 240 million incredibly densely-packed-in people have 20 cases yesterday? We need to ask questions and make observations. Or maybe my brain was made wrong and only I need to! :lol:
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#495

Post by Scotty »

isha wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:40 am Here's one ''what'' - there was an argument for a while there that the unvaccinated were enabling viral mutation by going around with loads of their dirty virus, and that this was endangering everyone. Then it became apparent that viral loads and transmission are just as much a problem for the vaccinated. Now if an Irish county with perhaps among one of the globe's highest vaccination rates also has one of the highest levels of Covid in Europe that means - using the old logic - there is a lot of (often asymptomatic) incubation of potential mutation going on.

And the mutations that succeed will be those selectively directed by normal viral evolution processes at the narrow focus of the cell binding receptors of the virus's spike protein to effect vaccine escape, because that is the portion of the virus that the vaccine instructs RNA to replicate and thus people to make antibodies against - otherwise the escape mutations would not ''succeed''.
That's just one ''what''.


Here are the inventors of the Pfizer vaccine the day before yesterday, pretty much saying this is happening and will happen




But sure look it, chase the rainbow if you want. I am just observing that things are not at all as we were told they would be. New stories are having to be told all the time to cover up problems.

I know it is disappointing to many. But there have been good scientists calling this potential out for a long while. And ignored.
We went to battle with one implement, which is not as good as we hoped.

Lookit I hate this fecken thing with a passion, as I hate all diseases to be honest - but especially I hate this one as I think it is a result of human hubris and I think it will take a toll unless we wipe it out. Vaccination with these shots will NOT wipe it out. It just won't.

I think there are ways out. Thankfully the IFR of SARS COV 2 is not as high as advertised and is very low for young and healthy people. Most people will do fine. The fear being generated is very debilitating.
Natural immunity against the whole virus will build herd immunity. Children will (unfortunately) face this virus now for the whole of their lives and it is best they have good B Cell and T cell based broad immunity rather than a lifetime of mRNA injections. (I say unfortunately as I was a strong Zero Covid advocate - I think we should never have allowed this virus to spread at all, but we did for economic reasons.)
We can protect vulnerable people - we can direct vaccination only towards vulnerable cohorts, so that there is not this vaccine escape pressure being caused by mass vaccination during high viral occurrence. That is vaccinology 101. Never vaccinate mid pandemic.
We can use known and tested molecules to help people heal from infection, including prophylaxis eg with Vitamin D, aspirin even. There are lots of good potential early treatments. Mechanical ventilation has not been a good response to an inflammatory condition.
Mulprahnivir - the new Merck pill - is not great from what I can tell in that it is mutagenic and obviously has not had long term longitudinal studies - I think we should depend for now upon well-tested molecules.

If you go to page 12 and onwards of this recent UK data
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... eek_40.pdf
First of all, and more as an aside, you will see that rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated per 100,000 are paradoxical in that they are higher among vaccinated people as one goes up the age groups. If we ignore that though and look at the hospitalisations (page 14), they are higher in unvaccinated. Told ya so, says you. But look at the numbers per 100,000 cases - let's take a 50-59 year old = 35 admissions per 100,000 cases recorded. That is an admission rate of 0.04%. Look at deaths among unvaccinated - higher than vaccinated. But 11 out of 100,000 positive cases = 0.01%. Sure when you get to 80+ it is 133 per 100,000 or 0.13%. But the toll is not what is advertised in the media day in day out.

Why did Uttar Pradesh with 240 million incredibly densely-packed-in people have 20 cases yesterday? We need to ask questions and make observations. Or maybe my brain was made wrong and only I need to! :lol:
You've way too much time on your hands.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#496

Post by isha »

I see Scotty and the Dark Horse rely largely upon ad hominem as a substitute for debate. Whatever rocks your world. :)
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Scotty
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#497

Post by Scotty »

If we all took your stance Isha we'd still be under 5km lockdown and working from home. No thanks.

Vaccines are the path out.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#498

Post by isha »

Scotty wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:04 am If we all took your stance Isha we'd still be under 5km lockdown and working from home. No thanks.

Vaccines are the path out.
Conversely I actually think now we should not have locked down and should have aligned more closely with the Swedish approach.

Vaccines are not the path out. You will see.
Last edited by isha on Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
ancapailldorcha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#499

Post by ancapailldorcha »

isha wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:52 am I see Scotty and the Dark Horse rely largely upon ad hominem as a substitute for debate. Whatever rocks your world. :)
I'm not the one comparing myself to Holocaust victims because I don't want a shot. If you don't want it, don't get it but the wailing adds nothing.
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isha
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Re: Vaccine megathread

#500

Post by isha »

Holocaust victims?! 🤔
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