Vaccine megathread

[Scotty]

we should not have locked down and should have aligned more closely with the Swedish approach.

Deaths per 1m population...
Ireland - 1,059
Sweden - 1,462

You want to be more like Sweden? The mind boggles.

[6456739]

My doc said get the vaccine. I did. She's the doc. I'm not. Trusting her on everything for years but now thinking she's trying to poison me because someone said something in an article that I myself have no expertise to process would obviously be insanity.

All people have to do is to use their common sense. Like, by all means ask questions. I've housemates who were sceptical but ended up getting the thing in the end. I used to work in clinical trials so I know how much testing and bureaucracy has to be done before these things end up on the market. It takes effort and time to read about how vaccines are made and tested and not everyone might have the time but it's incredibly unlikely that your doctor that you've known for years is trying to harm you and that's a fair reason for trust IMO.

[isha]

Deaths per 1m population...
Ireland - 1,059
Sweden - 1,462

You want to be more like Sweden? The mind boggles.

Fair point.

I just think lockdowns as we have had are resulting in higher numbers of missed cancers and diseases and may overall in some years time be found to have increased mortality. Not to mental economic effect which will feed into underfunding of health systems and thus more mortality in future.

[isha]

All people have to do is to use their common sense. Like, by all means ask questions. I've housemates who were sceptical but ended up getting the thing in the end. I used to work in clinical trials so I know how much testing and bureaucracy has to be done before these things end up on the market. It takes effort and time to read about how vaccines are made and tested and not everyone might have the time but it's incredibly unlikely that your doctor that you've known for years is trying to harm you and that's a fair reason for trust IMO.

Listen to what the developers of Pfizer are saying above.
Look at all the countries which stopped first AZ and now Moderna.
Information changes. Science changes. Long term testing could not be carried out on products in a short term context. The trial results that garnered EUAs have proven in real time to be incorrect. Efficacy waned faster. Etc etc.

[6456739]

And one of the most important things in common sense is knowing when you don't know enough to second guess or challenge. The funny thing is, I know anti vaxxers and the stereotypes of people who failed science and those who'd buy any old drugs off the local dealer without question - and good luck to them, I've partied with them myself - really nails a number of them.

Same here. Like, people who eat sausages regularly are concerned suddenly about what's going into their bodies? Seriously? Don't even start me on the 5G tracking guff when people are paying for the hardware for large corporations to do that anyway.

I've family members and neighbours back home parroting the anti-vaxx tropes. My sister seems to think she won't be able to have children if she gets it for some bizarre reason. She can't elaborate at all. Her body, her choice of course but this isn't an ideology based on intellectual rigour at all. I just ignore people who come out with this stuff.

[6456739]

I don't bother debating it with friends who are anti vaxx, not worth falling out with them. They've had their heads turned and no one likes having the stupidity of debating something that's way beyond both of us pointed out to them. I just say I have to trust the doctors because I have no expertise to challenge them, I trusted them with calls as important as the health of my children, it would be just weird for me to suddenly go around saying "but I think when it comes to vaccines and immunology, those doctors are dodgy".

Sound advice. I'm the same. I've a background in clinical trials and T cell biology so I'm on somewhat surer footing but I trust the MHRA and the NHS (I live in the UK) as opposed to random Youtubers and the Twitterati.

[PureIsle]

As far as I am aware to be classed as vaccinated you must have at least two doses and be a minimum of 2 weeks past the second dose ...... otherwise you are classed as unvaccinated.

If that is the case then it is very difficult to know what the situation really is with those who get ill, are hospitalised or die.

[PureIsle]

On the matter of my family doctor ........ she is a general practitioner and does not have the time and more especially the expertise (and maybe interest) to make determinations about the various aspects of the different vaccines.
She follows what she is told by her medical council.
She does not even have to hand the list of adverse effects of the jab, or the relative percentages relating to it and serious illness or death.

So I look elsewhere for information ..... and there are quite a number of well qualified people who make their views known and accessible to all.

To those who rely completely on their family doctor I would ask

did you ever consider why a second (and a third) opinion on medical interventions is considered appropriate?

I also bear in mind the old adage ...

'Doctors differ, patients die'

It is your health and future.
If you do not want to spend the time to educate yourself, that is your decision. Hopefully your family doctor gets it right.

[6456739]

On the matter of my family doctor ........ she is a general practitioner and does not have the time and more especially the expertise (and maybe interest) to make determinations about the various aspects of the different vaccines.
She follows what she is told by her medical council.
She does not even have to hand the list of adverse effects of the jab, or the relative percentages relating to it and serious illness or death.

So I look elsewhere for information ..... and there are quite a number of well qualified people who make their views known and accessible to all.

To those who rely completely on their family doctor I would ask

did you ever consider why a second (and a third) opinion on medical interventions is considered appropriate?

I also bear in mind the old adage ...

'Doctors differ, patients die'

It is your health and future.
If you do not want to spend the time to educate yourself, that is your decision. Hopefully your family doctor gets it right.

None of this explains why I should defer to random people on the internet, shysters and cranks over medical professionals.

[PureIsle]

None of this explains why I should defer to random people on the internet, shysters and cranks over medical professionals.

It would be enlightening to know who posted this ........ or is this just your way of saying you refuse to hear or read any other view than the one you have latched on to?
You are completely closed to second opinions?

I guess it is akin to having religious faith ...... ' I believe and do not want to know any more'.

Everyone to their own!

[PureIsle]

But I relied on doctors when my daughter was in a neonatal ward.

I didn't ask them whether they were just following the medical council, I didn't push them about the adverse effects of each and every decision, I didn't look elsewhere for information.

That was your decision not to be informed about the medical interventions performed and their possible adverse effects.
Some of us want that information before we consent to a medical intervention.
I am happy for you that you were comfortable in your lack of information, but do not tell me I should not be informed.

And the idea that I might "educate myself" is to lose any sense of what the word education means and to fundamentally contradict your own logic.

You would need to explain what you had in mind with that, as I failed to make any sense of it.

We can't Google our way past the years of study and training needed to become a GP, and yet you yourself question their ability and education while proposing that random punters "educate themselves"?

Where Covid is concerned, and vaccines and PCR tests, I certainly give more weight to the inventor of the PCR test than any GP and I would have similar attitude to GPs versus those who have developed and worked on mRNA vaccines and related topics.
These are very specialised subjects, requiring specialised training and experience, which GPs do not have.

That you apparently cannot see that probably explains your attitude.

[316670]

Unvaccinated master race reporting in, not a care in the world regarding Covid19, remember folks numbers dont lie but people do and all the numbers coming out about the vaccinated are not looking good.
"But, But , But , But trust the doctors" the same doctors that got 60 quid to stick the vaccine in your arm, of course they will be in favour of a booster, the only boosting will be to their bank account.
Al you have to do is look to Israel, cases are rising at a crazy rate and they are full steam ahead with boosters, the vaccines dont work and all evidence is pointing to the vaccines causing the rise in covid19 infections.

Not the first young and healthy person to die in the last few weeks, wonder if he was vaccinated? I sadly expect to see many more in the coming months.
https://www.independent.ie/style/celebr ... 48414.html

Anyway i wish the vaccinated all the best, which is more than can be said of them towards me, i'll see you again in a month to report on my good health.

[Scotty]

Not the first young and healthy person to die in the last few weeks, wonder if he was vaccinated? I sadly expect to see many more in the coming months.
https://www.independent.ie/style/celebr ... 48414.html

Shame on you using this poor lads death to promote your point of view.

[Scotty]

all evidence is pointing to the vaccines causing the rise in covid19 infections.

lol

[schmittel]

I get the sense the experts are getting ready to announce the use of vaccine certs will remain after October 22nd.

Stephen Donnelly is saying:

Unvaccinated people are placing a “disproportionate burden” on the health service, according to Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly.

The unvaccinated make up one-third of Covid-19 cases in hospital and two-thirds in ICU, but only 7 per cent of the adult population, he pointed out.

Leo:

Speaking in the Dáil on Thursday, Tánaiste Leo Varadkar said that if everyone was fully vaccinated there would be “no question” about easing restrictions.

Philip Nolan:

Making a decision not to be vaccinated was not just a personal choice, he said of well-known people who had declined to be vaccinated. There was an obligation, he said, especially if they had a “followership”.

Chief operations officer of the Health Service Executive (HSE) Anne O’Connor:

Ms O’Connor told RTÉ radio’s Morning Ireland that the majority of patients admitted to hospital with Covid and into ICU were not vaccinated and 10 per cent of the unvaccinated adult population was responsible for 50 per cent of admissions.

Simon Harris:

Minister for Higher Education Simon Harris suggested an extension of the digital Covid certificate beyond October 22nd as a possible way of society fully reopening in a safe way.

[PureIsle]

I see you're digging into the point that Doctors are not sufficiently informed, but random punters with zero qualifications can be informed by Google...

As (apparently) one of those "random punters", I can state categorically, that I have been informed by scientists and researchers who make their views and findings widely accessible.
That you wish to remain in ignorance is your choice. At least you are consistent in this.
That is not how a great number of people like to live.

I guess it is not surprising that you try to dismiss those who do not take the same route as yourself.

When you say this to your GP, does s/he laugh in your face? Or keep it together and laugh when you leave the room?

No. I have not, thankfully, heard anyone laugh at the effects of Covid.
You would need to be some kind of sick individual to see this as a laughing matter.

[Scotty]

As (apparently) one of those "random punters", I can state categorically, that I have been informed by scientists and researchers who make their views and findings widely accessible.
That you wish to remain in ignorance is your choice. At least you are consistent in this.
That is not how a great number of people like to live.

Do you also second guess your mechanic, dentist, solicitor, etc, or is it just your GP?

[Scotty]

I have been informed by scientists and researchers who make their views and findings widely accessible.

Could you link to some of these you've been informed by that advise not to take the vaccine?

[Scotty]

That is not how a great number of people like to live.

And yet we still have >90% take up. What does that tell you?

[isha]

And yet we still have >90% take up. What does that tell you?

Waterford have a battle ahead to get to 100% but it's all looking good for them.

[isha]

Did the people in Waterford get vaxxed up to the max and then go out en masse for a celebratory door-handle licking orgy?

[isha]

This new doctors as infallible saints trope is completely silly and political. I often get 2nd opinions about my car or my body.
Its estimated that up to 250,000 deaths per annum in the US are from medical malpractice. And 22000 in the UK. My own Dad, while in his last years of dying, was almost quickly finished off by the completely unrelat3d to his diagnosis kidney infection the hospital gave him shoving a tube up his urethra, and my best friend is convinced her husband's young death was caused by inappropriate treatment. I am missing badly a poster many of us knew who died recently and her death was undoubtedly speeded up by long years of doctors failing her abjectly. The doctor in my local surgery prior to the present one once threw a packet of tablets at a patient in exasperation saying these are for your headache: the patient was later diagnosed with a brain tumour. When I was pregnant with my first not only did my doctor at the time spew a huge arc of arterial blood that drenched the wall of his surgery when taking blood, he also sexually molested me by suddenly and aggressively groping me which he said was "checking my breasts to see if they would be good for giving milk" when I gave the old fucker another chance to treat me.
I am afraid it is very rare that any human enters saintly or infallible status in my estimation.

[isha]

In fact a girl I went to school with and later lived with at college is a senior medical professional in the UK now and at least when young she was one of the most unstable persons I have known, and I have known not a few unstable people!

[Scotty]

Well if they've drawn a ring around the headline sure it must be true!!

Isha, you're the one who keeps reminding us that vaccines do not reduce transmission. So highest or lowest means nothing.

Woman (I'm not sure who) being interviewed on Newstalk this morning said 80% of ICU are non-vaccinated and the 20% who are already had pre-existing conditions. Those stats tell you everything you need to know about the vaccine.

[6456739]

This new doctors as infallible saints trope is completely silly and political. I often get 2nd opinions about my car or my body.
Its estimated that up to 250,000 deaths per annum in the US are from medical malpractice. And 22000 in the UK. My own Dad, while in his last years of dying, was almost quickly finished off by the completely unrelat3d to his diagnosis kidney infection the hospital gave him shoving a tube up his urethra, and my best friend is convinced her husband's young death was caused by inappropriate treatment. I am missing badly a poster many of us knew who died recently and her death was undoubtedly speeded up by long years of doctors failing her abjectly. The doctor in my local surgery prior to the present one once threw a packet of tablets at a patient in exasperation saying these are for your headache: the patient was later diagnosed with a brain tumour. When I was pregnant with my first not only did my doctor at the time spew a huge arc of arterial blood that drenched the wall of his surgery when taking blood, he also sexually molested me by suddenly and aggressively groping me which he said was "checking my breasts to see if they would be good for giving milk" when I gave the old fucker another chance to treat me.
I am afraid it is very rare that any human enters saintly or infallible status in my estimation.

Who said Doctors are infallible saints? Quote please.