Welcome to GUBU.ie - if you're new here check out Housekeeping for more info. Any queries contact us.

Vaccine megathread

All things COVID
tinydancer
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:56 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#26

Post by tinydancer »

14 Israelis have caught COVID-19 despite receiving booster shot— two of whom have now been hospitalized
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... ster-shot/
The vaccines are failing in Israel
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/ser ... 1.10097229
i will peer into my crystal ball, the vaccinated will continue to fall ill with covid, the boosters shots will be of no help and as the death toll rises in Israel and the government continues down the vaccination booster path the evidence will be to strong linking the vaccines to death and we shall see a Coup d'état before the the year is out in Israel.
User avatar
Scotty
Posts: 994
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:20 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#27

Post by Scotty »

tinydancer wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:52 am 14 Israelis have caught COVID-19 despite receiving booster shot— two of whom have now been hospitalized
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... ster-shot/
Jeez how deep do you have to dig to find these stories? 14 out of what? 15, 1500, 150,000, 1.5million? The article gives no info, just 14 have been infected.
User avatar
Memento Mori
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:22 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#28

Post by Memento Mori »

tinydancer wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:52 am 14 Israelis have caught COVID-19 despite receiving booster shot— two of whom have now been hospitalized
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... ster-shot/
The vaccines are failing in Israel
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/ser ... 1.10097229
i will peer into my crystal ball, the vaccinated will continue to fall ill with covid, the boosters shots will be of no help and as the death toll rises in Israel and the government continues down the vaccination booster path the evidence will be to strong linking the vaccines to death and we shall see a Coup d'état before the the year is out in Israel.
Extremely unlikely, for a number of reasons.

There is clear evidence that the vaccines have reduced the level of mortality, particularly among the vulnerable. The vaccines have succeeded in this regard in Israel and other countries.

Despite most scientific and medical arguments to the contrary, I suppose it is possible that there may be unforeseen adverse medical reactions, in the long term. This may be unlikely, but it is possible. The argument from many cautious people is that as there has not been multi-year-long trials on the vaccines we cannot be sure that it would not cause unforeseen illness and side effects. Taking this argument at face value, the inverse is also true, we cannot be sure that it will cause illness or side effects in the long term.

So, at a minimum, predictions of certain doom are, even by their own standards, very premature.
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#29

Post by isha »

Predictions of certain success and long term safety are also very premature.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
User avatar
Memento Mori
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:22 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#30

Post by Memento Mori »

isha wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:04 pm Predictions of certain success and long term safety are also very premature.
Based on what we do know, the vaccines have, thus far, been very successful. This is crystal clear even in Britain, where the link between infection, hospitalisation and death has been massively disrupted by what seems to be an inferior vaccine.

There is, as of yet, nothing concrete to support the idea that this will all go pear-shaped and people with get really ill or die from so far unknown side effects from vaccination. There is nothing to suggest that this is a realistic probability. Rather, it is a worst-case scenario, nightmarish, niggling worry with little evidence as of yet to support it - although it cannot yet be categorically ruled out (so I do not go down the road of trying to humiliate or totally dismiss this worry that people have, it is a logical one to have).
User avatar
Memento Mori
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:22 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#31

Post by Memento Mori »

I recently painted my parent's fence with a new type of paint neither they or I have used before. The old paint lasted a long time and protected the wood well, but we could not get that this time. The worry that this paint will not last or be good is a logical one, because it is a new paint and we don't have experience with it, nor does it have the track record that the old one had. It has good reviews and people say it is good, so it will probably be grand, and the guy in the shop said it would be. Now, if the guy in the shop had have turned around and called me a fecking idiot and humiliated me for raising my concerns about this new paint, I would have told him to stuff it and I would not buy the paint at all, and would probably think that such a defensive reaction to a logical concern was hiding or covering up something - particularly if I were a naturally anxious or suspicious person.

This is what people are doing today with those who have concerns about the vaccine, and it is why, in my opinion, otherwise sensible people are going off the deep end.
scooby
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:46 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#32

Post by scooby »

Scotty wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:00 pm Jeez how deep do you have to dig to find these stories? 14 out of what? 15, 1500, 150,000, 1.5million? The article gives no info, just 14 have been infected.
15 who just got a 3rd shot - theyve barely even started administering the boosters there.
User avatar
Scotty
Posts: 994
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:20 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#33

Post by Scotty »

scooby wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:41 pm 15 who just got a 3rd shot - theyve barely even started administering the boosters there.
The intension of the vaccine is not to stop infection, it's to stop death.

If ONLY 14 have been infected after receiving their booster I would say that's an excellent result! Unless of course only 14 have received their booster! I'd imagine it's considerably more than that, we don't know though, because the report doesn't see fit to include that nugget of information.

Edit: This article, also published yesterday, the same day as the TOI article, says 240,00 have received 3rd dose. So 14 out of 240,000 infected (0.005%). Wow, that's excellent news! :roll:
Last edited by Scotty on Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Wibbs
Verified Username
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:43 am

Re: Vaccine megathread

#34

Post by Wibbs »

Windex wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:07 am I love how the media and the Vaccine makers are referring to "Breakthrough cases" just a year ago we knew this as a Vaccine failing to do the job its supposed to do, the spin machine is working overtime in pushing this narrative, we shall see how many Breakthrough cases are reported in the coming months in Ireland, now if you really want to be shocked look into how Breakthrough cases in the USA are reported, in a nut shell if you get Covid and are fully vaccinated you are unlikely to be recorded as a Covid case. Keep a eye on Israel they record all new infections and the fully vaccinate are filling up the hospitals.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ough-cases
Breakthrough Infections yes, but far fewer hospitalisations and deaths. Which is what was the aim with these vaccines from the get go. They don't prevent spread and infection as much as was hoped, but they do reduce mortality. That is also clear from the stats and shows the vaccines are doing the job they were supposed to do.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#35

Post by isha »

Memento Mori wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:19 pm Based on what we do know, the vaccines have, thus far, been very successful. This is crystal clear even in Britain, where the link between infection, hospitalisation and death has been massively disrupted by what seems to be an inferior vaccine.

There is, as of yet, nothing concrete to support the idea that this will all go pear-shaped and people with get really ill or die from so far unknown side effects from vaccination. There is nothing to suggest that this is a realistic probability. Rather, it is a worst-case scenario, nightmarish, niggling worry with little evidence as of yet to support it - although it cannot yet be categorically ruled out (so I do not go down the road of trying to humiliate or totally dismiss this worry that people have, it is a logical one to have).

Yesterday I saw a thread which cogently explored hospital and case numbers in the US and the upshot was that while hospitalisations are certainly down there has not been this "massive" decoupling that people are claiming. If I ever find it again, I will post it 😊 The conclusion was about half reduction if one allows for lags. Feck me if I can find it though!

It is strange in itself that cases of this respiratory virus is rising so much in the summer when immune systems are at their best, but time will tell us a lot more.

On the subject of the vaccine, the population is so emotively invested that it is hard to be on the opposite side of the fence. But I was thinking about a related matter that may be more acceptable for people to consider, and that is masks. Have we been appropriate when it comes to masks?

We have effectively mask mandates in place for quite some time. Shops, public transport, walking to your table, and so on. In other countries they have mask requirements for children in school. Recently a woman in Ireland was jailed for 90 days for not wearing a mask. She might be out for all I know but the drama was depicted. The mask wearing is backed by legislation. It is a serious business by all appearances.

But the soggy snotrags the vast majority of people wear are almost completely useless when it comes to stopping viral transmission as the weave has much larger holes than the size of the virus particles. It is a wholly illogical LAW that is not based on science. If the law said you must wear a minimum standard of non woven mask, eg FFP2 or better, then I would find it a logical piece of legislation and a reasonable demand.

I have worn FFP2 masks only during this pandemic, from as soon as I could get them and I bought unwoven inserts for the early cloth masks to increase their efficacy. I use the mask example to illustrate how we are pursuing mandates which are irrational and only serve as authoritarian devices rather than as epidemiologically useful responses. In Germany, for example, people wear FFP2 masks - their prime minister is a scientist and advised then early on. Here we threaten jail if people don't pull up their funky snood as hygiene theatre. Even if one just stops there at masks one has to admit there is logical inconsistency.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
schmittel
Verified Username
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#36

Post by schmittel »

Wibbs wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:17 pm Breakthrough Infections yes, but far fewer hospitalisations and deaths. Which is what was the aim with these vaccines from the get go. They don't prevent spread and infection as much as was hoped, but they do reduce mortality. That is also clear from the stats and shows the vaccines are doing the job they were supposed to do.
There's no doubt from the hospital/ICU/death figures that the vaccinations are bringing these down which is great. And they are working to protect the most vulnerable. What everybody wants.

But what sort of numbers of 12-15 year olds were being hospitalised, or in ICU, or dying?

If the vaccinations are not shutting down the transmission, it is surely not conspiracy theory stuff to question vaccinating the age cohorts that are not so vulnerable.

And the argument that a near fully vaccinated population that is still contracting and spreading virus will encourage the development of different strains, has some merit in my opinion.

And if, heaven forbid, some different strain mutates that starts putting 12-15 yer olds in ICU or the morgue, then worrying about indoor dining will be the least of our problems.
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#37

Post by isha »

schmittel wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:32 pm There's no doubt from the hospital/ICU/death figures that the vaccinations are bringing these down which is great. And they are working to protect the most vulnerable. What everybody wants.

But what sort of numbers of 12-15 year olds were being hospitalised, or in ICU, or dying?

If the vaccinations are not shutting down the transmission, it is surely not conspiracy theory stuff to question vaccinating the age cohorts that are not so vulnerable.

And the argument that a near fully vaccinated population that is still contracting and spreading virus will encourage the development of different strains, has some merit in my opinion.

And if, heaven forbid, some different strain mutates that starts putting 12-15 yer olds in ICU or the morgue, then worrying about indoor dining will be the least of our problems.
And also the vaccines not preventing transmissions, which they do not, makes vaccine passports or mandates a scientifically inconsistent and unreasonable response, and yet they seem to have quite a lot of public support. Strange times.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
User avatar
Wibbs
Verified Username
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:43 am

Re: Vaccine megathread

#38

Post by Wibbs »

schmittel wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:32 pmBut what sort of numbers of 12-15 year olds were being hospitalised, or in ICU, or dying?

If the vaccinations are not shutting down the transmission, it is surely not conspiracy theory stuff to question vaccinating the age cohorts that are not so vulnerable.
That's a question very much on my mind too. The risk to those under 30 is vanishingly tiny and those at actual risk because of underlying conditions could and should get the vaccines, however these early vaccines don't seem to reduce transmission in the community to the degree hoped and needed, so why are we pushing to immunise those under 30, or more, those under 20? It makes zero sense to me on the risk/return calculation. There's feck all risk, but there is some and feck all return from what I can see. It does not compute and I'd love to hear good epidemiological reasoning for it.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#39

Post by isha »

My 25 year old has had ongoing bad reaction to the vaccine. I can tell you I am pretty cross right now about the pressure on young people to get them. I talked with a whole bunch of people in their 20s this weekend, all up visiting in the area and meeting up outside with my lads, and the massive pressure was cited by all of them as the reason they got them.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
User avatar
Wibbs
Verified Username
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:43 am

Re: Vaccine megathread

#40

Post by Wibbs »

isha wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:30 pmBut the soggy snotrags the vast majority of people wear are almost completely useless when it comes to stopping viral transmission as the weave has much larger holes than the size of the virus particles.
True. On the surface, but your FFP2's weave also has much larger holes than the size of the viral particles. To fully protect against a virus you'd need a closed system air supply. Filtration again isn't that simple and it's degrees of protection going on. Covid isn't a truly airborne pathogen, it "lives" in expelled droplets which are significantly larger in nature. Yes an FFP2 will filter more of the incoming air and more importantly more of the outgoing, so will reduce transmission, but even "funky snoods" will reduce airborne droplets compared to an open nose and mouth. Remember the initial advice of coughing/sneezing into your elbow if you felt one coming on? Now that was hygiene theatre, but even that is better than coughing or sneezing with nothing to block it. Back in the 1918 pandemic two public health moves in the US showed efficacy and this was easier to spot as states varied in their responses; closing of schools and cloth masks.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
schmittel
Verified Username
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#41

Post by schmittel »

isha wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:37 pm And also the vaccines not preventing transmissions, which they do not, makes vaccine passports or mandates a scientifically inconsistent and unreasonable response, and yet they seem to have quite a lot of public support. Strange times.
I actually think the rising numbers are suggesting that vaccine passports/certificates are counter productive - they are giving those vaccinated a false sense of security, which leads them to let their guard down.

Personally I'd feel safer socialising with unvaccinated people, who are very conscious of the risk of transmission, than a group who are happy out flashing their certs.
knownunknown
Posts: 1872
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:55 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#42

Post by knownunknown »

Wibbs wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:17 pm Breakthrough Infections yes, but far fewer hospitalisations and deaths. Which is what was the aim with these vaccines from the get go. They don't prevent spread and infection as much as was hoped, but they do reduce mortality. That is also clear from the stats and shows the vaccines are doing the job they were supposed to do.
There was a long time in which vaccines were seen as the only way out of this. Herd immunity was being spoken of and hinted at through vaccines.
There was a study by the ECDC saying that the viral loads of those infected with the early variants after vaccination was quite low and this meant the possibility of transmission was also probably low. This was reflected in numbers at that time (April-May). In early discussions on social media I remember the infirm or immuno-compromised being brough up a lot. "You must take this vaccine or else you are hurting others..." etc.. in may in the US the CDC said you no longer have to wear masks which Biden agreed with
"In a significant part of the country you wouldn't have to take one of these off because you don't have to put one on. Like in my home state of Delaware, where I lived in New Castle County, where I was yesterday in Pennsylvania. Because people got vaccinated. They got vaccinated. They don't need a mask when the majority, the vast majority of the people got vaccinated."
Something they have both recently backtracked on.

Governments around the world then formed policies around things like indoor dining, travel, covid passports/certificates etc.... I believe based on this evidence that the vaccines reduce transmissibility dramatically. Now that we know as of last week it only reduces it by 2/3 I believe we need to reevaluate these policies, as they are in essence futile. (except to exert social pressure on others to take the vaccine)
[/edit or even counter-productive as the above poster suggested]

Everything you say about how it helps those infected is true of course, risk of hospitalization and deaths is reduced significantly when infected with the delta variant.

It should be strictly a personal choice whether you want to take the vaccine or not. This social pressure of 'you're not going to the pubs again unless you do' is disgraceful. There is no need for this great vax or no vax debate while we have these leaky vaccines. The debate only needs to happen when we have vaccines that are capable of bringing us to herd immunity. Surely that's the only point at which it matters to you whether someone else takes a vaccine.
User avatar
isha
Verified Username
Posts: 4768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#43

Post by isha »

Wibbs wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:48 pm True. On the surface, but your FFP2's weave also has much larger holes than the size of the viral particles. To fully protect against a virus you'd need a closed system air supply. Filtration again isn't that simple and it's degrees of protection going on. Covid isn't a truly airborne pathogen, it "lives" in expelled droplets which are significantly larger in nature. Yes an FFP2 will filter more of the incoming air and more importantly more of the outgoing, so will reduce transmission, but even "funky snoods" will reduce airborne droplets compared to an open nose and mouth. Remember the initial advice of coughing/sneezing into your elbow if you felt one coming on? Now that was hygiene theatre, but even that is better than coughing or sneezing with nothing to block it. Back in the 1918 pandemic two public health moves in the US showed efficacy and this was easier to spot as states varied in their responses; closing of schools and cloth masks.
FFp2 has holes bigger than virus, I know that, but it is much better as a material for blocking transmission and lowering initial viral dose (which is very important) than bits of floral linen. And yet the latter are considered to fulfil the legal mandate. This is not science. Otherwise surgeons would lift up their neck cravats to cover risk during operations.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#44

Post by kadman »

schmittel wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:51 pm I actually think the rising numbers are suggesting that vaccine passports/certificates are counter productive - they are giving those vaccinated a false sense of security, which leads them to let their guard down.

Personally I'd feel safer socialising with unvaccinated people, who are very conscious of the risk of transmission, than a group who are happy out flashing their certs.
Quite true. I see from my own family members, parents at 90 and many aunts and uncles in their late 80's and some UK free travelling relatives too, now think they are impervious to everything, as they were led to believe the vaccine was the silver bullet. They now go out and about without a care in the world.
I would be more at home with unvaccinated who are respectful of others too.
User avatar
Wibbs
Verified Username
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:43 am

Re: Vaccine megathread

#45

Post by Wibbs »

isha wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:06 pm FFp2 has holes bigger than virus, I know that, but it is much better as a material for blocking transmission and lowering initial viral dose (which is very important) than bits of floral linen. And yet the latter are considered to fulfil the legal mandate. This is not science. Otherwise surgeons would lift up their neck cravats to cover risk during operations.
Until the 60's and 70's surgeons used washable cloth masks. But anyway, it is science and as I said it is a question of degree of filtration and risk reduction; no masks - highest risk, cloth masks - reduced, risk surgical mask - further reduced risk FFp2 - even further reduced risk. I agree proper flitration is the best, but cloth masks are better than nothing.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
knownunknown
Posts: 1872
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:55 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#46

Post by knownunknown »

Joe Biden at a townhall in Cincinnati in July was asked this question by Don Lemon(I'm having trouble finding a video clip but full transcript can be found here).
LEMON: You said that you're talking to scientists. But what are they telling you, Mr. President?

BIDEN: What they're telling me is let us decide based on scientific data and how we proceed. Do it the way we would ordinarily do it. Look, for example, everybody talks about how, you know, this virus came, this -- the drugs that are designed to kill the virus came along so quickly. They've been working on it for two decades. There's nothing quick about this. It's been over two decades.

So people say, "I'm not taking a drug that was approved so quickly." It's been two decades. The truth is, we haven't said it enough to people to allay their feels -- their fears. This is nothing that just happened yesterday and we said, well, let's take a shot on this.

And there's a process. Usually the process takes the better part of a year or more to get some of these things decided. But the expectation -- they're not promising me any specific date, but my expectation talking to the group of scientists we've put together, over 20 of them, plus others in the field, is that sometime maybe in the beginning of the school year, at the end of August, beginning of September, October, they'll get a final approval, saying the FDA said, no, this is it. It's good.

But, again, one last thing. We don't talk enough to you about this, I don't think. One last thing that's really important is, we're not in the position where we think that any virus, including the Delta virus, which is much more transmissible and more deadly in terms of unvaccinated people, the -- the various shots that people are getting now cover that. You're OK. You're not going to -- you're not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.
My emphasis added. I think this is something the majority of people still believe.
User avatar
Hodors Appletart
Verified Username
Posts: 372
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:05 pm
Location: The Big Smoke

Re: Vaccine megathread

#47

Post by Hodors Appletart »

isn't there a difference between getting the virus and developing the disease.

the vaccine makes it less likely you will develop symptoms, or bad symptoms or even die.
Hold The Door
User avatar
PureIsle
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:40 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#48

Post by PureIsle »

IMO, yes just opinion, a large portion of those who hesitate to take the anti-Covid jab are not concerned only about one aspect of what has been occurring, but are more considering the totality of their concerns about such things as

vaccine efficacy ..... the expectation for a long time was a vaccine would make the receiver immune

vaccine coercion ..... I recently spoke to a number of people (average age ~30) who had recently been vaccinated and not one of them said they took the jab for the sake of their health. Each and every one said things like to go to games; pubs; job requirements; generally socialise and travel.

lockdowns ..... a complete reversal of the WHO recommendations prior to 2020 where lockdowns were strongly discouraged

masks ....... same as lockdowns and conflicting results of trials.

massive media promotion - propaganda - pushing the 'official' view

lack of health advice - never amongst all the media hype since the beginning, have I, or anyone I asked, heard advice to the population on how they could increase their health status to help stave off Covid should they contract the virus. Allegedly this is a health crisis!

censorship ...... social media being censored to the point that questioning the official narrative was sufficient to be taken down.
etc. etc.

Yes most concerns can be discussed in isolation, but most attempts to discuss the situation overall and how the totality of all those questions and concerns affect peoples' attitude to the vaccines is likely to degenerate very quickly into name calling and other such tactics.

Again, IMO, it is no wonder that a number of people for whom the lack of a 'vaccination cert' does not impinge greatly on their daily lives, are not easily persuaded that taking the jab is their best course of action for their health.
User avatar
dawg
Posts: 402
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:02 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#49

Post by dawg »

Just a snippet which may point to a growing issue in the Moscow region



OTOH if they are funneling all cases for the region to one hospital then it may not be a problem...just a consequence of policy
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: Vaccine megathread

#50

Post by kadman »

Just came across this snippet,
Scientists are scratching their heads over the precipitous decline in daily COVID-19 infections in the United Kingdom following their rapid rise earlier in the year. Officially recorded new cases more than halved in just 2 weeks: from a high of 54,674 on 17 July to 22,287 on 2 August.
Post Reply