Vaccine megathread

[Scotty]

You could argue that once it became clear it was not doing a good job of preventing Covid-19 the EUA should have been revoked.

It's been deemed safe and highly effective at reducing acute sickness/death.

[schmittel]

And all the stats back this up. There's always been a severally disproportionate ratio of unvaccinated in hospital and ICU compared to the unvaccinated ratio in the general population.

Get well soon.

We haven't seen any stats on this, certainly in Ireland, since onset of Omicron, so to definitively say always is a bit of a stretch.

[schmittel]

It's been deemed safe and highly effective at reducing acute sickness/death.

And that's great, but that's not what it was granted EUA to do.

[Scotty]

This is a very credible reason for the anti-Ivermectin narrative. I've always scratched my head a bit at the vigour and venom with which the mere possibility of Ivermectin being of any help at all was shouted down, and the explanation that it was simply political

but it wasn't 'simply political'. The very inventor of Ivermectin it said it wouldn't work against covid without dangerously high doses. The 'positive' ivermectin/covid studies were invitro at 50-100 times the normal human dose! No study has been conducted to show ivermectin is effective against Covid in real world test. A recent one, and one of the largest, had a big Irish connection but again, was fruitless.

[Scotty]

We haven't seen any stats on this, certainly in Ireland, since onset of Omicron, so to definitively say always is a bit of a stretch.

You must be joking! We've discussed it in depth in this thread.

[schmittel]

You must be joking! We've discussed it in depth in this thread.

Genuinely not joking. Sure I know you've mentioned this in discussion regularly since onset of Omicron, but can you link to any stats from Ireland since early December showing vaccination status in ICU/hospital?

I haven't seen any, so I'm genuinely interested to look at the ones you've seen.

[Scotty]

Sure...

As you can clearly see in the data, in every single week the amount of unvaccinated (the red bar) in ICU is clearly disproportionate to the general population signifying the enormous difference being vaccinated makes with most weeks, up until Omicron become dominant, the unvaccinated making up over 50% of ICU patients.






On 15th Feb '22, 35% of hospitalisations were unvaccinated.




https://assets.gov.ie/217107/f9fc41f7-4 ... 873970.pdf


There may be updates for March, April, I haven't looked for them.

[schmittel]

Sure...

As you can clearly see in the data, in every single week the amount of unvaccinated (the red bar) in ICU is clearly disproportionate to the general population signifying the enormous difference being vaccinated makes with most weeks, up until Omicron become dominant, the unvaccinated making up over 50% of ICU patients.

Thanks. As I said a bit of a stretch to say always.

[Scotty]

Thanks. As I said a bit of a stretch to say always.

Perhaps you could point to the week that the unvaccinated haven't made up a disproportionate percentage of patients if it's not 'always'?

[schmittel]

Perhaps you could point to the week that the unvaccinated haven't made up a disproportionate percentage of patients if it's not 'always'?

Impossible to say that definitively now that the numbers have been turned on their head. Obviously when it was 65% of a large number of patients in ICU were unvaccinated, the disproportion was so large it was very clear that the unvaccinated were at higher risk from ICU even allowing for those had underlying health conditions, behavioural differences, different ages etc.

Far less clear cut now that the situation is:

The number of COVID-19 cases in ICU whose primary reason for admission to ICU was COVID-19 has increased from 18 on 26th April to 20 on 3
rd May. The proportion of COVID-19 cases in ICU for whom the primary reason for admission to ICU was COVID-19 has decreased from 55% on 26th
April to 51% on 3rd May. Of the 27 COVID-19 patients admitted to ICU in the 7 days to 3rd May 2022, COVID-19 was the primary reason for ICU admission for 10 (37%).
• According to HSE data as of 3rd May 2022, 26% of COVID-19 cases in ICU were unvaccinated, 8% were partially vaccinated, and 67% were fully vaccinated, of whom, 85% were recorded as having received a booster/additional dose.

Weekly Report 5th May 2022

On these numbers it is impossible to say definitively that the vaccine is clearly protecting people from ICU. That was my point.

[Scotty]

On these numbers it is impossible to say definitively that the vaccine is clearly protecting people from ICU.

That's an incredible statement.

On the lowest ratio week for the unvaccinated, the 8th Feb, there were 30 unvaccinated out of a total of 72 patients. That means ON THE LOWEST WEEK that a whopping 41.6% of ICU patients were unvaccinated, 41%!!!, at a time when only 5% of the population are unvaccinated! In other words, 1 in 20 of the population are taking up 8 in 20 of ICU beds.

To say that it's "impossible to say definitively" that the vaccine is protecting people means you're either trolling or have no grasp of what the numbers show whatsoever. Either way, I'm wasting my time.


EDIT: Even on your more recent figures, for 5% of the population to make up MORE THAN A QUARTER of ICU beds still shows vaccines have a massive effect.

[isha]

A qualifier being ignored is that some of the most vulnerable cannot be vaccinated.

[isha]

What about if both sides of the debate have achieved reasoned analysis and are reasonably correct on different matters?

What about if the older populations and the immuno-compromised are by far best off taking the vaccines (if they wish) as they undoubtedly reduce their risk of death from Covid?

What about if the risk analysis is not so clear for younger populations - that the risk of harm, which undoubtedly exists, is just not worth taking for an evidently age-stratified disease-outcome that clearly leaves them at very low risk of harm from the disease?

What about if more of what is initially good is not necessarily continuously good when it comes to the human immune system - what about dose, tolerance, precautionary principle?

What about the growing evidence that lockdowns caused far more harm than good - immune deficit, education deficit, missed diagnoses etc - and that opinions like the Great Barrington Declaration which called for targeted protection of vulnerable groups should have been lauded not taken down and dismissed as conspiracy ideas?

What about if masking as used by the vast majority of people - permeable material, fashion masks, ill-fitted, re-used, etc - is not that effective at all as some proper studies show, but does serve a significant nudge to fear function in societies? But that properly fitted N95s are useful in crowded enclosed situations like transport?

What about if along with vaccines there have been good repurposed medicines found to help people have better disease outcomes? Shouldn't both be used then?

What about if all those who are hugely in favour of and relieved by the existence of vaccines could also agree that compelling any other person to take any medical product into their bodies by means of coercive economic and social measures is simply unthinkable?

These just seem like reasonable balancing acts to me. I honestly don't know how they could be considered odd. The world has been so weird these past couple of years.

[Scotty]

A qualifier being ignored is that some of the most vulnerable cannot be vaccinated.

I think the figure Paul Reid gave was 28,000 being advised not to get vaccinated. It might have been a little more? Either way, it's a very small % of the population. Less than 1%. I don't think they're being ignored, it's just not a significant amount.

[Scotty]

What about if...

Some interesting questions.

Regarding these...

What about if the older populations and the immuno-compromised are by far best off taking the vaccines (if they wish) as they undoubtedly reduce their risk of death from Covid?

What about if the risk analysis is not so clear for younger populations - that the risk of harm, which undoubtedly exists, is just not worth taking for an evidently age-stratified disease-outcome that clearly leaves them at very low risk of harm from the disease?

The data does show that quite a high proportion of those requiring hospitalisation were under 55. Also, the vaccine's were optional. Those under 55 didn't have to take them yet +90% did.

[knownunknown]

Some interesting questions.

Regarding these...



The data does show that quite a high proportion of those requiring hospitalisation were under 55. Also, the vaccine's were optional. Those under 55 didn't have to take them yet +90% did.

It’s hard to understand the data when they can’t make the distinction between hospitalised with and for covid. If all the hospitalisations were from covid it would be a lot easier.

[schmittel]

That's an incredible statement.

On the lowest ratio week for the unvaccinated, the 8th Feb, there were 30 unvaccinated out of a total of 72 patients. That means ON THE LOWEST WEEK that a whopping 41.6% of ICU patients were unvaccinated, 41%!!!, at a time when only 5% of the population are unvaccinated! In other words, 1 in 20 of the population are taking up 8 in 20 of ICU beds.

To say that it's "impossible to say definitively" that the vaccine is protecting people means you're either trolling or have no grasp of what the numbers show whatsoever. Either way, I'm wasting my time.


EDIT: Even on your more recent figures, for 5% of the population to make up MORE THAN A QUARTER of ICU beds still shows vaccines have a massive effect.

In the most recent figures we have, only 37% of people admitted to ICU with Covid, were admitted because of Covid. i.e for starters the vaccine status of the significant majority of people in ICU with Covid is totally irrelevant.

Those 37% of patients represent a grand total of 10 people. 10 patients of whom we do not actually know what their vaccination status is. They could be 100% unvaccinated because they have underlying conditions for we all we know. Or equally they could be 100% vaccinated patients in their 80s.

So that's 10 patients that we know nothing about their vaccination status, never mind their age, medical history, weight, lifestyle or any other behavioural factors but you think that data definitely shows that the "vaccines have a massive effect" at keeping people out of ICU?!

Yet at the same time when you're confronted with tens of thousands of Covid cases, in which the data shows the vaccinated are testing positive for Covid at three times the rate of the unvaccinated, you say that data cannot be trusted as a measure vaccine effectiveness at preventing Covid because of behavioural factors?!

Yes, you're wasting your time looking at these figures and trying to discuss them intelligently.

[isha]

"With and for covid" are the vital qualifying words in your graph.

Your idea of optional does not correspond with mine. My husband took a vaccine only because the contract he was working on required it. It was that or the dole. Unvaccinated Canadians still cannot leave their country. Anyone who did not speak up against truckers bank accounts being frozen, unvaccinated Lithuanians prevented from entering the majority of shops, unvaccinated Italians prevented from using public transport, unvaccinated Austrians threatened with monthly fines or imprisonment, unvaccinated Irish people excluded from cafes, restaurants and pubs for many months and pilloried by the mainstream media as being contemptible etc etc etc, was complicit in the shocking medical authoritarianism of the early 21st century.

Side effects - I have 2 daughters in law, only 2 in the whole world, both early 30s, and yet how crazy is it that one of them still has a visibly swollen thyroid months after second vaccine, and the other spent 3 days hospitalised for severe adverse events after vaccination, which were reported by her doctor as such, and the doctor told her she was one of many. I hear of so many cases. And the reports of so many others are frightening. The fall off in numbers accepting boosters worldwide compared to second doses is very significant.

[Scotty]

Yes, you're wasting your time looking at these figures and trying to discuss them intelligently.

You've seen the chart. Unvaccinated in red, vaccinated in green. It's as simple as it can be made but if you're still confused or can't see the blatantly obvious, there's nothing more I can say to help you. Sorry. I tried.

[schmittel]

You've seen the chart. Unvaccinated in red, vaccinated in green. It's as simple as it can be made but if you're still confused or can't see the blatantly obvious, there's nothing more I can say to help you. Sorry. I tried.

So rather than refute my figures which are the most recent we have, you wave a chart about from a few months ago to tell me I'm confused! On top of that you're missing something glaringly obvious about the chart, but as you say, there's nothing more I can say to help you!

[isha]

Couple of interesting articles I came upon today.

Professor Jeffrey Sachs of Columbia University, considered one of the leading economists in the world (apparently) and leading member of The Lancet Covid 19 Commission, says US experiments may have led to lab leak of engineered SARS virus.

Stop it, Jeffrey! Only mad people have ever said that.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/0 ... eaked-lab/


And a Moderna trial of unvaccinated versus vaccinated cohorts found that much higher percentages of unvaccinated people (93% v 40%) generated anti-nucleocapsid antibodies. The nucleocapsid is another one of the four proteins of the coronavirus, like the spike protein is, but far less prone to mutation. So antibodies against the less mutable nucleocapsid protein would be better to create longer personal immunity (and by logical extension ultimately herd immunity which benefits everyone. You're welcome world.)

Stop it, Moderna! Only mad people have been saying this for ages.

Results

We analyzed data from 1,789 participants (1,298 placebo recipients and 491 vaccine recipients) with SARS-CoV-2 infection during the blinded phase (through March 2021).
Among participants with PCR-confirmed Covid-19 illness, seroconversion to anti-N Abs at a median follow up of 53 days post diagnosis occurred in 21/52 (40%) of the mRNA-1273 vaccine recipients vs. 605/648 (93%) of the placebo recipients (p < 0.001).

Higher SARS-CoV-2 viral copies at diagnosis was associated with a higher likelihood of anti-N Ab seropositivity (odds ratio 1.90 per 1-log increase; 95% confidence interval 1.59, 2.28).

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 936v1.full

Read the full article for further information.

[46a]

J&J= Hep
AZ=monkeypox
Pfizer=vAids
Moderna=vAids
Pfizer+Moderna booster=VAids+

Its all there to see if you took the time to read the official documents releases by UK government and the Pfizer trial documents, the same documents Pfizer they tried to hide for 80 years!

Don't hate me, channel your anger towards the governments that pushed the vaccines on you.
UK NHS confirm natural immune response of vaxxed is reduced, google it and get angry , not at me but at those who pushed the vax.

[schmittel]

Who's angry? I'm damn glad I got vaccinated three times. I got Covid (the vaccination doesn't prevent it, it reduces the severity - same with the 'flu vaccination) and while it was mostly just like a very bad cold, with one awful day of feeling like having the 'flu, I shudder to think of what it would be like WITHOUT the vaccination. Nobody pushed it on me.

I'm angry!!

[isha]

I'm angry!!

I am too, for what it's worth. Not in a seething, active way, not visibly, not so that it affects my ordinary daily mood or life, but it's a deep down realisation that I think will shape my attitude towards society and the body politic for the rest of my life.

I have lost enormous trust in the goodness of a great proportion of the so-called ''ordinary people'' and every contrarian suspicion I ever had about the institutions and non-elected bodies and mega corporations that control/influence much of our lives has been reinforced.

Too many ordinary people and public pundits have behaved disgracefully towards the ''unvaccinated''. What a dreadful word, in and of itself - ''the unvaccinated''. How terrible to have separated a category of people according to their public hygiene compliance and made them a legitimate target.

What I have personally witnessed and regularly heard on general media over these past 2 years has amounted to hate speech. It has been absolutely awful to be on the receiving end of such intemperate and irrational contempt from ordinary people. There has been silencing of contrary opinion and active shunning.

Until you have had formerly friendly neighbours actively wish harm upon you to your face (as I have experienced), or others actively avoid you because of their illogical presumptions that somehow you are a disease carrier, you cannot imagine what it has been like. It became apparent early on that the vaccines did not stop infection or transmission and treating people like lepers was just a channel for a new kind of irrational bigotry. Bigotry against those not willing to offer their body up for the supposed good of the collective.

Also the widespread and wilful ignoring of the cohort of people who have been badly damaged by the shots is just mind boggling for me. There is so much genuine suffering out there from people whose lives will never be the same. Fair enough if people want the shot for themselves, fair enough if it gives them comfort, fair enough if it stopped some of the elderly who were dying from dying, I have always been in favour of people choosing their medicines, but anyone who thought others should be compelled in any way to participate in gene therapy trials has no moral standing in my opinion.

Yeah, so I AM angry.

Some of it is expressed in this shorter essay I read at the weekend from a Canadian.

Only weeks ago, it was the admitted goal of our own leaders to make life unlivable for the unvaccinated. And as a deputized collective, we force-multiplied that pain, taking the fight into our families, friendships, and workplaces. Today, we face the hard truth that none of it was justified — and, in doing that, uncover a precious lesson.

It was a quick slide from righteousness to cruelty, and however much we might blame our leaders for the push, we’re accountable for stepping into the trap despite better judgement.

We knew that waning immunity put vast numbers of the fully vaccinated on par with the shrinking minority of unvaccinated, yet we marked them for special persecution. We said they hadn’t “done the right thing” by turning their bodies over to state care — even though we knew that principled opposition to such a thing is priceless in any circumstance. And we truly let ourselves believe that going into another ineffectual lockdown would be their fault, not the fault of toxic policy.

And so it was by the wilful ignorance of science, civics, and politics that we squeezed the unvaccinated to the degree that we did.

We invented a new rubric for the good citizen and — failing to be one ourselves — took pleasure in scapegoating anyone who didn’t measure up. After months of engineered lockdowns, having someone to blame and to burn simply felt good.

So we cannot hold our heads high, as if believing we had logic, love, or truth on our side while we viciously wished death upon the unvaccinated. The best we can do is sit in the awareness of our rabid inhumanity for having cast so many aside.

And this longer essay I posted explains for me the rise of the bio security state founded upon nudged fear which has come to govern many people's mode of living. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1484
https://unherd.com/2022/05/covid-was-li ... s-endgame/

I cannot buy into this way of living as a human being. I just won't. And if my anger and stubbornness is what fuels my ongoing wariness, so be it. I didn't choose it. It was forced upon me through experience.

[schmittel]

Just read the medium article, thanks for posting. This resonated with me, but I suspect will not for everybody:

Most of us who pilloried the noncompliant did it because it seemed like certain victory, like the unvaccinated would never make it through unbroken. Indeed, the promised new normal looked unbeatable, so we sided with it and made punching bags out of the holdouts.
But betting against them has been a scathing embarrassment for many of us who’ve now learned that the mandates only had the power we gave them. It was not through quiet compliance that we avoided endless domination by pharmaceutical companies and medical checkpoints at every doorway. It was thanks to the people we tried to tear down.