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Anyone still glued to this?

News, geopolitics, impact, consequences etc from the Ukraine Russia conflict
CelticRambler
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#626

Post by CelticRambler »

In terms of gruesomeness, I saw several versions of this tweet appear in recent days:



One of the Russian "human wave" attacks of last week - 63 of them killed, versus 0 Ukrainians ... and 0m² of territory gained.
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Del.Monte
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#627

Post by Del.Monte »

Gotta love Twitter, quite how some of those lads posting can manage to operate a keyboard/phone as well as standing on their hind legs is beyond me. :mrgreen:
'no more blah blah blah'
CelticRambler
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#628

Post by CelticRambler »

Amongst all the huffing, puffing and general willy-waving that's going on our eastern frontier, I found this account of "why do they do it?" quite poignant:


I have assembled a list, in no specific order, of subjects that Russian soldiers regularly converse about:
- Upgrading their apartments with their spouses, making plans to trade an apartment and add more rooms.
- Buying cars for themselves or their spouses
- Paying off mortgages, car payments, or similar debts
- Paying off child support debts
- Getting a combat veteran ID to receive state benefits for the rest of the life
- Saving money to take their families on vacation by the sea.
- Getting new furniture, home electronics, smartphones
...
Interestingly, these conversations sometimes intertwine with discussions about salary issues, as soldiers try to understand why they haven't received their compensation or why they received less than expected.
...
Conversations among soldiers suggest that few express criticism of the war itself. Instead, criticisms tend to focus on the perceived incompetence of the command or the perceived insufficient use of force to win. Some believe that they should "stop playing around" and just raze entire cities or conduct nuclear strikes so they can go home earlier.
"Tatarigami_UA" is one of the relatively level-headed contributors to the general noise coming out of the conflict, and his posts are anything but knee-jerk.

What most struck me in that account was the following quote:
"We have been shelling the kho**ols (ethnic slur for Ukrainians) in the town for three days. If we finish them off soon, I hope that our commander will let me go home by the summer. With my salary, I should have enough savings so we can buy a new car and drive to the sea."
Imagine living in/coming from a country where you are so poor that your biggest dream is to be able to drive to the sea. And so dehumanised that you think killing a large number of people you've never met is a reasonable price to pay for such a treat. :(
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#629

Post by Jack The Stripper »

And twitter is always gospel 🙄
knownunknown
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#630

Post by knownunknown »

People hungry for war, revenge and retribution without considering the decades, or even life spans of the people affected. Every time I think about this I am more and more disgusted . How about the terrorism that will ensue when ‘peace’ finally does come about? The amount of people thirsty for revenge only increases by the day, on both sides.

When did people become so short sighted. Things will change though, the mood and the sentiment generally and only then will there be enough pressure on the instigators to stop this madness. There is an easy path to peace and always has been but the big dicks of this world would rather swing them around with the full support of the public. fecking madness.
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isha
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#631

Post by isha »

It is sickening.
But then again the wider public's response to covid authoritarianism has ripped the veils from my eyes. So I'm not wholly surprised by the subterranean bloodlust.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
CelticRambler
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#632

Post by CelticRambler »

knownunknown wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:39 amThere is an easy path to peace ...
What is it? :?:
Calahonda52
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#633

Post by Calahonda52 »

CelticRambler wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:42 am What is it? :?:
exactly, and where do you think he would stop
the attached is an aide memoir: with his minimum targets starred
Image

from here
https://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eu.htm
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Screenshot 2023-03-16 at 11.47.47.png
Screenshot 2023-03-16 at 11.47.47.png (169.47 KiB) Viewed 2864 times
knownunknown
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#634

Post by knownunknown »

CelticRambler wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:42 am What is it? :?:
That you don’t know speaks volumes about the western propaganda. It’s been outlined dozens of times in this thread and you and many others still haven’t a clue. The propaganda is strong.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#635

Post by Hairy-Joe »

knownunknown wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:39 am There is an easy path to peace and always has been .
Wow. If you are so sure of an easy path to peace that's acceptable to both sides, you're a better diplomat than all of the UN and if you pull off this easy path to peace, there's a Nobel Prize in it for you.

I hope you are not subscribing to the Russian version of peace which involves them keeping some of Ukraine against the wishes of Ukrainians......
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Del.Monte
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#636

Post by Del.Monte »

Hairy-Joe wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:52 pm Wow. If you are so sure of an easy path to peace that's acceptable to both sides, you're a better diplomat than all of the UN and if you pull off this easy path to peace, there's a Nobel Prize in it for you.

I hope you are not subscribing to the Russian version of peace which involves them keeping some of Ukraine against the wishes of Ukrainians......
Realistically, some territory will have to been relinquished if peace is to return and the Crimea is Russian for keeps. What's the alternative?
'no more blah blah blah'
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#637

Post by Setanta »

Del.Monte wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:19 pm Realistically, some territory will have to been relinquished if peace is to return and the Crimea is Russian for keeps. What's the alternative?
Semi-automanus status for the occupied regions,overseen by UN peacekeepers.....along lines of the 2015 Minsk agreement?






I think the days of centralised governments is coming to an end,and more federal government will be in future (similar to the Eire nua proposal of the 1970s for here),it ends with money/power become more and more concentrated and a disconnect between public and those who run the state and a gradual resentment build up and it's not possible to run a country with wealth divisions effectively
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CelticRambler
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#638

Post by CelticRambler »

Del.Monte wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:19 pm Realistically, some territory will have to been relinquished if peace is to return and the Crimea is Russian for keeps. What's the alternative?
The alternative is not to assume that giving Ukrainian (or anyone else's) territory to the Russians will somehow bring about peace in our time, seeing as it hasn't stopped them up to now.

Only last week, the Russian ministry of foreign affairs threatened the Georgians with "the same treatment as Ukraine" if the Georgian people dared to topple the current pro-Kremlin government.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#639

Post by Hairy-Joe »

If you read Putin's ravings from 2 years ago, he wants to restore the Soviet Union. He wants Russian troops in Berlin.

I wouldn't be surprised if he wants to emulate Tzar Alexander and take Paris. After all in his warped view, it's Russian (as Tzar Alexander took it once in battle)
knownunknown
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#640

Post by knownunknown »

Hairy-Joe wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:41 pm If you read Putin's ravings from 2 years ago, he wants to restore the Soviet Union. He wants Russian troops in Berlin.

I wouldn't be surprised if he wants to emulate Tzar Alexander and take Paris. After all in his warped view, it's Russian (as Tzar Alexander took it once in battle)
Putin has been clear on his red lines for decades. It’s nato expansion east, It’s akin to the Cuban missile crisis. Kennedy was a hero though for threatening to invade Cuba. Castro wanted to use the missiles and sacrifice Cuba if necessary. Krushchev, wisely, decided against it.

Countries have been invading each other since the dawn of time, we’d all be dead already if someone hadn’t decided to concede.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/ ... ato.russia (2008 - “Putin warns Nato over expansion”)
https://www.ft.com/content/8bc3ccd0-000 ... 0077b07658 (2008 - “ Ever eastward? A divided Nato pauses at Russia’s ‘red lines’”)
https://www.belfercenter.org/publicatio ... e-got-real (2014 -“How Russia's Red Line in Ukraine Got Real”)
(2014 - “ Putin's chief spokesperson: 'We have our red lines'”)
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... rg/473319/(2016 - “How Russia Saw the ‘Red Line’ Crisis“)
https://www.reuters.com/markets/stocks/ ... 021-11-30/ (2021 - Putin warns Russia will act if NATO crosses its red lines in Ukraine)

Remember that when obamas’s red lines were crossed (chemical weapons in Douma) we as nato fired on Syria with missiles from afar.

How do you explain away these very clearly drawn red lines? Your narrative, the one espoused by many without any form of proof, just does not correspond with past events. The one which posits this is Putin’s glorious unification of the Soviet Union. Whichever influencers you’re watching are abusing you with propaganda.


Krushchev made a deal secretly to get what he wanted for the removal of the missiles in Cuba, mainly the corresponding missiles pointing at him from turkey. These fecking idiots can find a resolution that you or I don’t even know about but would prefer to swing their dicks around. People supporting them are the biggest idiots. I don’t mean to be inflammatory but this makes me really angry.
CelticRambler
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#641

Post by CelticRambler »

knownunknown wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:50 amCountries have been invading each other since the dawn of time, we’d all be dead already if someone hadn’t decided to concede.
Yeah ... but why do all the "whataboutNATO" posters insist that it has to be Ukraine that concedes? Given that Ukraine was minding its own business up until Feb '22, why shouldn't it be Russia that gives up territory, even if it's only in the form of a UN-enforced DMZ on their side of the border?

As for Putin's red lines, they're nothing but the irrelevant scribblings of a toddler. We know now that he's not the least bit worried about NATO, because he's pulled all his tanks, troops and artillery systems away from the actual, existing NATO borders and sent them to be vaporised in a non-NATO battlefield. All he really wants is unfettered access to the Black Sea, and after that stupid stunt with the Reaper drone this week, he's demonstrated why that'd be a Bad Idea for everyone.

In any case, the war is already lost for Putin and Russia. He's aggressively depopulating the eastern half of the country and increasingly endebtted to China, and creating the conditions for a land-grab on that side of the Federation.
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isha
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#642

Post by isha »

If the war is already lost for Putin, how come influential US think tanks and increasingly their major liberal media platforms are more and more writing about how the US needs to have a get out plan and not be bogged down in a lengthy war of attrition in Europe?
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
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Del.Monte
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#643

Post by Del.Monte »

isha wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:00 am If the war is already lost for Putin, how come influential US think tanks and increasingly their major liberal media platforms are more and more writing about how the US needs to have a get out plan and not be bogged down in a lengthy war of attrition in Europe?
The war is lost for Russia but nobody in Putin's entourage has the courage to tell him - very similar to Hitler in WW.II. Even if Russia somehow extracts itself from the Ukrainian adventure Putin has succeeded in making his country an international pariah for decades to come. I hope for all our sakes the Chinese are noting what becomes of countries that carry-on in such a fashion.
'no more blah blah blah'
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#644

Post by Setanta »

knownunknown wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:50 am Putin has been clear on his red lines for decades. It’s nato expansion east, It’s akin to the Cuban missile crisis. Kennedy was a hero though for threatening to invade Cuba. Castro wanted to use the missiles and sacrifice Cuba if necessary. Krushchev, wisely, decided against it.

Countries have been invading each other since the dawn of time, we’d all be dead already if someone hadn’t decided to concede.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/ ... ato.russia (2008 - “Putin warns Nato over expansion”)
https://www.ft.com/content/8bc3ccd0-000 ... 0077b07658 (2008 - “ Ever eastward? A divided Nato pauses at Russia’s ‘red lines’”)
https://www.belfercenter.org/publicatio ... e-got-real (2014 -“How Russia's Red Line in Ukraine Got Real”)
(2014 - “ Putin's chief spokesperson: 'We have our red lines'”)
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... rg/473319/(2016 - “How Russia Saw the ‘Red Line’ Crisis“)
https://www.reuters.com/markets/stocks/ ... 021-11-30/ (2021 - Putin warns Russia will act if NATO crosses its red lines in Ukraine)

Remember that when obamas’s red lines were crossed (chemical weapons in Douma) we as nato fired on Syria with missiles from afar.

How do you explain away these very clearly drawn red lines? Your narrative, the one espoused by many without any form of proof, just does not correspond with past events. The one which posits this is Putin’s glorious unification of the Soviet Union. Whichever influencers you’re watching are abusing you with propaganda.


Krushchev made a deal secretly to get what he wanted for the removal of the missiles in Cuba, mainly the corresponding missiles pointing at him from turkey. These fecking idiots can find a resolution that you or I don’t even know about but would prefer to swing their dicks around. People supporting them are the biggest idiots. I don’t mean to be inflammatory but this makes me really angry.
Russia has no right to tell a country what to do/join....in same regard usa/UK have no right to demand we join NATO


Now they have reasonable concerns, complaints about the adbandonment of the Minsk agreement,in same regard the Irish government holds the UK to account over the GFA

But to go tell a different country,they can't do x,y and z.....would question what is the point of independence otherwise??.....the English will eventually run into the same hot water in UK with Westminster overruling Holyrood in scotland on trans issue
Last edited by Setanta on Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Setanta
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#645

Post by Setanta »

isha wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:00 am If the war is already lost for Putin, how come influential US think tanks and increasingly their major liberal media platforms are more and more writing about how the US needs to have a get out plan and not be bogged down in a lengthy war of attrition in Europe?
Russia are digging in,and putting trenches,all across the front....there's plenty drone footage of Ukraine attacking track machines doing so



their winter offensive failed to grab large tracts of ground to justify lives lost,but this war is only getting started,Ukraine has to try and dislodge them from defensive positions.....

a Ukraine which has lost many of its best troops over a protracted defence,a realitively inexperienced troop force would do better on defence,and Russia is changing its mandatory service from 21-30,to 18-27 with a 2 year overlap....giving it largest number over the years 2024 and 2025..... estimated to be an extra 400K
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isha
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#646

Post by isha »

The Irish Foreign Ministry publishing a moving video on St Patrick's Day about how Ireland through 100 years of independence has pursued peace and upheld peace globally. And yet we are not doing so at all during one of the most dreadful and worrying conflicts that has taken place on the European continent in decades. Our representatives should break the global hegemony of jingoism and push as hard as we possibly can for vital peace talks to start immediately. And stick with it as long as it takes to stop the bloodshed, the ruination of Ukraine, and the taking of land that doesn't belong by an aggressor and the threat of nuclear war. There may have to be local plebiscites, heavily but transparently monitored for fairness and accuracy, in contested regions to assess to which country the local people have allegiance.

Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
CelticRambler
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#647

Post by CelticRambler »

isha wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:01 ampush as hard as we possibly can for vital peace talks to start immediately.
But peace talks on what basis? Putin has stated over and over and over again that he will not stop until he has re-sovietised all of Eastern Europe.

And eliminated every trace of Urkainian culture from the world.

In addition to that, Russia has reneged on every treaty it's signed since the fall of the Soviet Union - so what starting point can there be for peace talks? The Russians couldn't even manage to maintain their own voluntary "Christmas" cease-fire on the 7th January, choosing instead to bomb Ukrainian public transport and kill ordinary Ukrainians waiting to catch a bus.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#648

Post by CelticRambler »

Setanta wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:30 am Russia are digging in,and putting trenches,all across the front....
They're also digging in and fortifying their own side of the border, all the way back to Moscow, where they're cutting down forests and destroying UNESCO heritage sites to install air defence batteries.

The Chinese must be doubled over laughing at the pointlessness of it all when they're quietly infiltrating their own people into Siberia.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#649

Post by kadman »

CelticRambler wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:18 am They're also digging in and fortifying their own side of the border, all the way back to Moscow, where they're cutting down forests and destroying UNESCO heritage sites to install air defence batteries.

The Chinese must be doubled over laughing at the pointlessness of it all when they're quietly infiltrating their own people into Siberia.
And the US weapons manufacturers and Military Industrial Complexes must be orgasmic with the thought of never ending money rolling into their coffers with this ongoing conflict. Ask any native american or first nation person how the US honoured agreements with them, and they will tell you how they didn't. Its not something aggressors do....they lie and kill better. Russia is good at it....and so is the west, history books tell us that.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#650

Post by Hairy-Joe »

Macron and Shultz tried to talk to Putin before the war started to try to avert the war. Putin ignored them. Putin gambled on the West appeasing him like was done in Donbas in 2014, Georgia, Chechnya, Armenia, Syria, etc. This time the west didn't roll over. Putin is still gambling on the west getting tired of this and the next US elections going his way.

Putin's personality and outlook was best exposed when he learned that Merkel has a fear of dogs. The next meeting they had, he brought out large dogs. What sort of person would do that in diplomatic talks......
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