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Anyone still glued to this?

News, geopolitics, impact, consequences etc from the Ukraine Russia conflict
KHD
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#426

Post by KHD »

Setanta wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:29 pm

Thank feck we're neutral and not involved/compelled into this war.....Russia may well over stepped the mark,but the longer it goes on,the more their claims about Nazis are hard to dismiss as propaganda
You should check out the Ukraine On Fire documentary made by Oliver Stone. Gives a good overview and the main actors involved historically. CNN recently lost it's accreditation via the Ukrainian government for showing footage of a Ukrainian soldier doing a Seig Heil at the cameras. Totally ignored by the West as Russian propaganda but in reality, it is fairly widespread and you just need to look at the images on twitter, tattoos, old weapons, battalion names, streets named up to a few days ago named after Bandera.. I don't think it's an ideology like say National Socialism in Hitler's Germany at the time who wanted to take over all of Europe, its localised to Ukrainian Nationalism, all the more disturbing since Nazism and extreme right wing nationalism took a very big toll on the people of Ukraine and Bandera's massacres of Polish and Jewish people in the west of the country, which some people in Poland still hold Ukraine responsible for and would like their land back from Ukraine.

Also interesting with respect to western media reporting is that in 2014 period, major western media outlets were publishing articles about the Nazi problem and the rise of this phenomenon in Ukraine, but this all stopped when Russia invaded Ukraine earlier this year.

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Del.Monte
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#427

Post by Del.Monte »

Should be loads of fun when they are give EU accession, not that it will make much difference here as there will be more foreign nationals here at that stage than Irish people.
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Hairy-Joe
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#428

Post by Hairy-Joe »

Well, look at the extreme elements in France, Germany (those arrested today), Poland etc and you'll see a lot of similar behaviour with Neo Nazis, etc
Setanta
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#429

Post by Setanta »

KHD wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:13 pm You should check out the Ukraine On Fire documentary made by Oliver Stone. Gives a good overview and the main actors involved historically. CNN recently lost it's accreditation via the Ukrainian government for showing footage of a Ukrainian soldier doing a Seig Heil at the cameras. Totally ignored by the West as Russian propaganda but in reality, it is fairly widespread and you just need to look at the images on twitter, tattoos, old weapons, battalion names, streets named up to a few days ago named after Bandera.. I don't think it's an ideology like say National Socialism in Hitler's Germany at the time who wanted to take over all of Europe, its localised to Ukrainian Nationalism, all the more disturbing since Nazism and extreme right wing nationalism took a very big toll on the people of Ukraine and Bandera's massacres of Polish and Jewish people in the west of the country, which some people in Poland still hold Ukraine responsible for and would like their land back from Ukraine.

Also interesting with respect to western media reporting is that in 2014 period, major western media outlets were publishing articles about the Nazi problem and the rise of this phenomenon in Ukraine, but this all stopped when Russia invaded Ukraine earlier this year.

The polish chap in work is from down and around Ukraine border,he said the worst killers in ww2 were Ukrainians who crossed border regularly to attack/massacre villages along border

That being said,they hold no real issue and have no complaints on refugees going there,even his village packed with em,few blokes in Ireland could learn a lesson



Whole thing seems a cluster feck of epic proportions,and the handwave away of concerns about that avoz regiment and the uncritical adulation they seemed to command in media should raise eyebrows of any reasonable person
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Del.Monte
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#430

Post by Del.Monte »

I still think the UN boss who described the whole situation as "absurd" is the only one to speak any sense but sadly the UN is irrelevant.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/2 ... in-ukraine
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KHD
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#431

Post by KHD »

Setanta wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:01 pm The polish chap in work is from down and around Ukraine border,he said the worst killers in ww2 were Ukrainians who crossed border regularly to attack/massacre villages along border

That being said,they hold no real issue and have no complaints on refugees going there,even his village packed with em,few blokes in Ireland could learn a lesson



Whole thing seems a cluster feck of epic proportions,and the handwave away of concerns about that avoz regiment and the uncritical adulation they seemed to command in media should raise eyebrows of any reasonable person
I've nothing against refugees coming from any war, its basic humanity.. what are they supposed to do ?. I see them everyday. That video represents what I think of the war in Ukraine. I will stand by it as it is well researched, gives the historical context and is verified at every turn. It shows the reasons why the war took hold in the first place. With regards to Neo Nazi activity in mainland Europe, there is no comparison to what has or is currently happening in Ukraine. There is no pretext or sane reason why Neo Nazism should be in anyway accepted in any circumstances no matter how expedient you think it is for pollical reasons or gain. None. Millions of people died to get rid of Nazism, both victims and soldiers on the battlefield, yet the majority of people have accepted that some forms of Neo Nazism are acceptable and can be ignored because it's proponents are helping us battle the Russians. I find it highly disturbing.
Last edited by KHD on Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#432

Post by KHD »

Del.Monte wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:14 pm I still think the UN boss who described the whole situation as "absurd" is the only one to speak any sense but sadly the UN is irrelevant.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/2 ... in-ukraine
Mr Guterres should remember why the UN was setup in the first place.

Article 106 -> “Pending the coming into force of such special agreements referred to in Article 43 as in the opinion of the Security Council enable it to begin the exercise of its responsibilities under article 42, the parties to the Four-Nation Declaration, signed at Moscow, October 30, 1943, and France, shall, in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 5 of that Declaration, consult with one another and as occasion requires with other Members of the United Nations with a view to such joint action on behalf of the Organization as may be necessary for the purpose of maintaining international peace and security.”

The special agreements were never agreed between the USA, Russia, Great Britain and France.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#433

Post by knownunknown »

KHD wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:13 pm
Also interesting with respect to western media reporting is that in 2014 period, major western media outlets were publishing articles about the Nazi problem and the rise of this phenomenon in Ukraine, but this all stopped when Russia invaded Ukraine earlier this year.
Can’t watch the video as it’s age restricted. Of course what you’re saying is true but around this time there was a witch-hunt for nazis and racists in American media which lead to Charlottesville. There was a now debunked story that the azov had trained the tiki torch carriers in Charlottesville.

They did write about it but what they forgot to mention was that the azov are funded by a Jewish person, their president is jewish(zelenskyy) they are his best fighters and they fought valiantly for him fighting to protect Mariupol. They also are fighting alongside Israeli special forces as we speak. This nazi smear did indeed start in western media but it was pounced upon by Russia propaganda. Mostly it’s a load of crap. Like someone else said you can find nazis anywhere in small numbers if you look hard enough. This doesn’t mean the whole thing (in this case a battalion) are motivated by nazi literature, it’s just not true.

They surrendered when in Mariupol when told to do so, at risk of not being treated properly as POW’s, which Putin vowed to do, but since it seems there might have been a prisoner swap for them.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/u ... anization/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/11/opin ... orism.html
KHD
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#434

Post by KHD »

knownunknown wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:04 am Can’t watch the video as it’s age restricted. Of course what you’re saying is true but around this time there was a witch-hunt for nazis and racists in American media which lead to Charlottesville. There was a now debunked story that the azov had trained the tiki torch carriers in Charlottesville.

They did write about it but what they forgot to mention was that the azov are funded by a Jewish person, their president is jewish(zelenskyy) they are his best fighters and they fought valiantly for him fighting to protect Mariupol. They also are fighting alongside Israeli special forces as we speak. This nazi smear did indeed start in western media but it was pounced upon by Russia propaganda. Mostly it’s a load of crap. Like someone else said you can find nazis anywhere in small numbers if you look hard enough. This doesn’t mean the whole thing (in this case a battalion) are motivated by nazi literature, it’s just not true.

They surrendered when in Mariupol when told to do so, at risk of not being treated properly as POW’s, which Putin vowed to do, but since it seems there might have been a prisoner swap for them.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/u ... anization/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/11/opin ... orism.html
Sorry I did not mention Azov and Azov has nothing to do with the video Unknown. Your missing the point I am trying to make. No matter.

The Atlantic Council. :)
KHD
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#435

Post by KHD »

Anyone else think that something is afoot in Belarus with the constant inbound movement of Russian troops and military hardware over the last few weeks ?

Is it purely a defensive ploy in case Ukraine decide to launch an offensive on the border of Belarus or a force that will be ready to intercept an potential attempt by Poland to come into Western Ukraine if things go belly up for Zelinsky in the East ? The Polish army is a highly trained force numbering i think to 70000 troops. Hard to tell at the moment what's going on there at the moment.

The Ukrainian situation in the east is becoming critical from what I can see. These regions have been heavily fortified which has slowed Russian advances to a crawl. It would be interesting to find out what way fortifications are like in the rest of the country. Also I note Ukraine's cement plants have not been targeted so far by the Russian missile strikes which is critical for Ukraine in continuing fortification efforts of its cities and towns.
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isha
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#436

Post by isha »

Not taking sides but I listened to this interview this morning of a historian who has just written a history of Russia. There is something a tad arrogant about suggesting that you are a better authority on Russian history than the Russians but nonetheless he HAS been at it quite some time. He mentions the whole religious impulse and new Rome aspect of the situation which I have only generally heard in fringe accounts. Not saying it is all true - but there's a bit of truth in many diverse places. Anyway worth a listen, I found.

Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
KHD
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#437

Post by KHD »

American journalist, Patrick Lancaster, in Rostov, Russia interviewing Russians on what the think of the war in Ukraine and Putin. Spot the Paddy :mrgreen:

Setanta
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#438

Post by Setanta »

KHD wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:54 am Anyone else think that something is afoot in Belarus with the constant inbound movement of Russian troops and military hardware over the last few weeks ?

Is it purely a defensive ploy in case Ukraine decide to launch an offensive on the border of Belarus or a force that will be ready to intercept an potential attempt by Poland to come into Western Ukraine if things go belly up for Zelinsky in the East ? The Polish army is a highly trained force numbering i think to 70000 troops. Hard to tell at the moment what's going on there at the moment.

The Ukrainian situation in the east is becoming critical from what I can see. These regions have been heavily fortified which has slowed Russian advances to a crawl. It would be interesting to find out what way fortifications are like in the rest of the country. Also I note Ukraine's cement plants have not been targeted so far by the Russian missile strikes which is critical for Ukraine in continuing fortification efforts of its cities and towns.
I'd imagine Ukraine would funnel weapons to insurgents in Belarus with the express intention of decapitating/removing government of the only European continent country publically supporting Putin.....Belarus had enough to quash peaceful protests last year,would seem obvious next step that armed uprising would occur there,and Ukraine would likely supply em,either that or there's noone with in the Ukrainian government/military have any stragetic planning skills
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Del.Monte
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#439

Post by Del.Monte »

Any attempt by Poland to intervene should lead to their immediate and permanent expulsion from NATO and, needless to say no intervention by NATO if Russia responded against Poland. Unlikely in any event - I hope.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#440

Post by Del.Monte »

KHD wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:47 pm American journalist, Patrick Lancaster, in Rostov, Russia interviewing Russians on what the think of the war in Ukraine and Putin. Spot the Paddy :mrgreen:
I tried, but I can't be doing with interviews with lads wearing masks and moving like they are being pursued. Gave up after 2.5 mins.

Without watching the rest of it, I don't see how the 'reporter' is supposed to get the true views of people who are afraid of their leaders and don't want to risk being conscripted or sent to a gulag.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#441

Post by KHD »

Del.Monte wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:52 pm I tried, but I can't be doing with interviews with lads wearing masks and moving like they are being pursued. Gave up after 2.5 mins.

Without watching the rest of it, I don't see how the 'reporter' is supposed to get the true views of people who are afraid of their leaders and don't want to risk being conscripted or sent to a gulag.
There was one lad at the start that was wearing a face mask. Anyway there was a mixture of views, one didn't care about it, one called it an illegal invasion, some didn't like Putin, Nato expansion seemed to be a common theme, and most thought the war was bad. There was an Irish fella interviewed in amongst the whole lot who's wife was Russian. I found it surprising as I wasn't expecting it, that is all.

He is a good reporter in my opinion, he is up at the front line mostly in the east at the coal face, not sitting in a hotel in Kiev like the bulk of the reporters are. If anyone wants to see what war is really like and not some sugar coated video game he is worth checking out.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#442

Post by KHD »

Example, same is happening on the Ukrainian side but gives a good insight of what it feels like to have live artillery land a couple of meters away and that the next one could be the last thing you hear. Won't get this stuff on RTE :mrgreen:

knownunknown
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#443

Post by knownunknown »

KHD wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:27 am Sorry I did not mention Azov and Azov has nothing to do with the video Unknown. Your missing the point I am trying to make. No matter.

The Atlantic Council. :)
That article is from 2020, before the invasion and notes all the errors that the New York Times made in their hunt for nazis.

Sorry I missed the point but I couldn’t watch the video. I thought the point you were making was that the Russians were making out the Ukrainians to be nazis when in fact it was western media did it first.
Last edited by knownunknown on Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#444

Post by Hairy-Joe »

KHD wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:54 am Anyone else think that something is afoot in Belarus with the constant inbound movement of Russian troops and military hardware over the last few weeks ?

Is it purely a defensive ploy in case Ukraine decide to launch an offensive on the border of Belarus or a force that will be ready to intercept an potential attempt by Poland to come into Western Ukraine if things go belly up for Zelinsky in the East ? The Polish army is a highly trained force numbering i think to 70000 troops. Hard to tell at the moment what's going on there at the moment.

The Ukrainian situation in the east is becoming critical from what I can see. These regions have been heavily fortified which has slowed Russian advances to a crawl. It would be interesting to find out what way fortifications are like in the rest of the country. Also I note Ukraine's cement plants have not been targeted so far by the Russian missile strikes which is critical for Ukraine in continuing fortification efforts of its cities and towns.
Ya I think Belarus has something brewing. I'm open to correction but I think there are a few factions with vastly different priorities. You have Lukashenko trying to lick up to Putin as he needs Putin to stay in power. Hence the Russian troop movements. However, Lukashenko needs to keep his own army onside to avoid a coup and it was reported earlier in the war that the Belarusian army basically told Lukashenko that if he wants to stay in power, the Belarusian army will stay in Belarus. There's a LOT of support for the exiled opposition leaders both in the country and in the army. Basically, he's walking a tightrope.

On the cement plants, I'd put that down the leftover Soviet thinking. The Soviets see railways and cement factories as building blocks and they'll need them in their eyes. Also, their focus is on knocking out the power and gas to make the Ukrainians rise up against the NATO puppet government (in their eyes).
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#445

Post by knownunknown »

Del.Monte wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:45 pm Any attempt by Poland to intervene should lead to their immediate and permanent expulsion from NATO and, needless to say no intervention by NATO if Russia responded against Poland. Unlikely in any event - I hope.
There was talk of expelling Turkey not too long ago because of incursions on other NATO countries and it never happened. Turkey leave when they decide to leave, I’m sure the same applies to Poland.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#446

Post by Del.Monte »

knownunknown wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:55 pm There was talk of expelling Turkey not too long ago because of incursions on other NATO countries and it never happened. Turkey leave when they decide to leave, I’m sure the same applies to Poland.
Agreed, but they won't leave of their own volition. However, it needs to be made clear to them that any independent action will result in their losing their protection under the NATO 'attack on one member is an attack on all members' protocol.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#447

Post by knownunknown »

Brittney Griner freed.
KHD
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#448

Post by KHD »

knownunknown wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:55 pm There was talk of expelling Turkey not too long ago because of incursions on other NATO countries and it never happened. Turkey leave when they decide to leave, I’m sure the same applies to Poland.
Turkey will never be expelled from NATO. Whatever about them occupying another EU / NATO country, It is too strategically important where it sits and the countries it borders. It also controls the Bosporus and the Dardanelles straights between the Mediterranean and the Black sea.

Erdogan in fairness is a very clever guy no matter what you may think of him politically. The way he can deal with the US, Nato and Russia without blinking an eyelid and still have a country is impressive.
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#449

Post by knownunknown »

KHD wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:30 pm Turkey will never be expelled from NATO. Whatever about them occupying another EU / NATO country, It is too strategically important where it sits and the countries it borders. It also controls the Bosporus and the Dardanelles straights between the Mediterranean and the Black sea.

Erdogan in fairness is a very clever guy no matter what you may think of him politically. The way he can deal with the US, Nato and Russia without blinking an eyelid and still have a country is impressive.
Just involves removing all opposition once you assume power :lol:
KHD
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Re: Anyone still glued to this?

#450

Post by KHD »

knownunknown wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:33 pm Just involves removing all opposition once you assume power :lol:
Absolutely, and he has done this to an extent that the Americans can't do anything to dispose of his rule there. They admitted that themselves. Erdogan's "fifth column" created after the coup attempt a few years ago.
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