A 'movement' for a 'new republic'

[Irish History]

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Despite the unhistorical Free State lie about being the "10th" President of Ireland, she herself made it clear that her first official visit as the President of actual Ireland, is to the occupied 6 counties of Ireland - or as she said it, "the north" (of Ireland).

"I look forward to paying my first official visit to the North and meeting with people from all communities and celebrating the rich and heritage and traditions of all who live there.

I am particularly conscious of Article Three of the Constitution, which sets out in detail the firm wish of the Irish people and the Irish nation to have a united Ireland, albeit with the conditions set out very clearly in that article – consent."

Consent means a majority in the north voting for the reunification of Ireland - NOT the consent of the foreign ethnic British Unionists (census) per se, in order to reunify our country Ireland.

That needs to be made crystal clear - because there are some deluded people who imagine the latter, rather than the actual legal former.

EDIT.
You can add BBC nI News to that - they just said "Unionist" consent (thrice). Seriously - I do wonder if some people are compos mentis at all.
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RE: above - that part of her speech was cut from the RTE 9 News report. Quelle surprise!

That is clearly an attempt to supress the growing calls for the reunification of Ireland among the people. Now doubt FF and FG in Gov. had a word in the ear of RTE- nothing to see here - move along now.

Plenty of time to talk about the scandal in the BBC though.

RTE = Raidió Teilifís Éngland.
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[Statsman]

So I watched most of it on the Player last evening. One thing struck me forcibly; I could understand most of her Irish speech, which makes me part of a minority in the population. And I saw in the news that she apparently 'encouraged' her lunch guests to learn the language. Now I've nothing against Irish, as I say, I understood her pretty well, but I am very much opposed to any notion that those of us who speak the language are somehow more Irish than those who aren't. This smacks too much of elitism and a revival of Dev's Ireland Gaelic and pure for my liking. By all means let's keep the language alive, but as a choice, one among equals, in a distinctly multilingual society.

[midlander12]

So I watched most of it on the Player last evening. One thing struck me forcibly; I could understand most of her Irish speech, which makes me part of a minority in the population. And I saw in the news that she apparently 'encouraged' her lunch guests to learn the language. Now I've nothing against Irish, as I say, I understood her pretty well, but I am very much opposed to any notion that those of us who speak the language are somehow more Irish than those who aren't. This smacks too much of elitism and a revival of Dev's Ireland Gaelic and pure for my liking. By all means let's keep the language alive, but as a choice, one among equals, in a distinctly multilingual society.

Of course they'll always deny it's anything to do with that, and you can't really prove it either way. Call me unconvinced, however.

I've no issue with her 'encouraging' the use of Irish. BTW. But this 'tir gan teanga, tir gan anam' stuff leaves me cold I'm afraid. Where I come from English was already the main spoken language in the 1680's. And where does it leave the likes of Belgium, Austria, or for that matter most of the Middle Eastern countries who speak Arabic rather than some national language?

[SuirView]

It was nice that Michelle Smith got a mention!

[Statsman]

Of course they'll always deny it's anything to do with that, and you can't really prove it either way. Call me unconvinced, however.

I've no issue with her 'encouraging' the use of Irish. BTW. But this 'tir gan teanga, tir gan anam' stuff leaves me cold I'm afraid. Where I come from English was already the main spoken language in the 1680's. And where does it leave the likes of Belgium, Austria, or for that matter most of the Middle Eastern countries who speak Arabic rather than some national language?

Not to mention Switzerland, with its four languages and high levels of English fluency.

I'm as comfortable in Spanish as I am in Irish. Doesn't mean I'm Spanish, or any less Irish than I ever was.

[midlander12]

Not to mention Switzerland, with its four languages and high levels of English fluency.

I'm as comfortable in Spanish as I am in Irish. Doesn't mean I'm Spanish, or any less Irish than I ever was.

The Swiss incidentally claim to have their own language, but it's essentially a dialect of German. There's also Romansch, of course, spoken by 1% of the population over in a few Alpine valleys.

I can speak Irish OK, in a very halting and mathematical sort of way. If anything I can probably read French and Spanish better than Irish, but my spoken fluency in both would be minimal. If I hear an English-speaker speaking Irish, I can usually understand them, but the accents on the Nuacht are incomprehensible to me.

All this is by the by - none of it says anything about my or anyone else's nationality.

[Brabantje]

I think we're all getting a bit flustered about this language thing.

The Irish language is incredibly important. And yes, understanding about the place we live is incredibly important and the language is wrapped up in that. I recently read the late Manchán Magan's "32 words for field" and there is a lot lost in the anglicisation of our place and personal names.

That said, the previous failures of the Irish language - in particular those of it's proponents in the state bodies, and to an almost equal extent it's "purist' activists, should not colour attempts at revival.

People talk about the "Kneecap effect" as of its suddenly "cool" to speak Irish to stck it to the Brits/Staters/right wingers, but that does a disservice to the wider language. The kneecap effect is only one outworking of the much more important "TG4 effect" - accessibility sitting aside something you might actually want to watch, such as live rugby or GAA or one of their many excellent documentaries.

It is an official languages of the state, and learning outcomes should be better. And in a wider context, learning outcomes of other languages should also be better.

A few referenced other multilingual countries, and in western Europe monoglots are rare. Perhaps we are suffering a little from Anglosphere arrogance a little.

[Gatsbygirl]

So I watched most of it on the Player last evening. One thing struck me forcibly; I could understand most of her Irish speech, which makes me part of a minority in the population. And I saw in the news that she apparently 'encouraged' her lunch guests to learn the language. Now I've nothing against Irish, as I say, I understood her pretty well, but I am very much opposed to any notion that those of us who speak the language are somehow more Irish than those who aren't. This smacks too much of elitism and a revival of Dev's Ireland Gaelic and pure for my liking. By all means let's keep the language alive, but as a choice, one among equals, in a distinctly multilingual society.

Unfortunately I could understand very little of it. And it was "Connemara Irish"---the kind I learned in school. How has it come to this, that I have forgotten all my Irish?

I think plenty of Irish is fine on a ceremonial occasion like yesterday. It's a day for poetry, aspiration, hope, Gaeilge, a bit of grandiose blather

But yes, fluent Irish speakers are a minority, and an elite---academic high flyers , children of Irish teachers and writers, who may have escaped the rough-and-tumble of ordinary school by attending a Gaelscoil, or who may have had the money to fund summers in the Gaeltacht

That's ok. It's nice to speak Irish fluently.

But it's when these Gaelgoiri become zealots and start insisting that the rest of us should speak Irish, and that we are somehow less than Irish if we don't----that's where I have the problem

CC mentioned the word "inclusive" a lot in her speech. Unfortunately long swathes of her speech excluded a substantial number of her listeners who could not understand her

As for Irish being the "working language" of the Aras... I'm not sure how that will work.

[Gatsbygirl]

It was nice that Michelle Smith got a mention!

That was funny.

Oliver Callan mentioned it this morning.

In her speech, CC referred to Michelle O'Neill as "Michelle Smith"

Oh dear

Like Albert Reynolds and "John Unionist"....

[Statsman]

Unfortunately I could understand very little of it. And it was "Connemara Irish"---the kind I learned in school. How has it come to this, that I have forgotten all my Irish?

I think plenty of Irish is fine on a ceremonial occasion like yesterday. It's a day for poetry, aspiration, hope, Gaeilge, a bit of grandiose blather

But yes, fluent Irish speakers are a minority, and an elite---academic high flyers , children of Irish teachers and writers, who may have escaped the rough-and-tumble of ordinary school by attending a Gaelscoil, or who may have had the money to fund summers in the Gaeltacht

That's ok. It's nice to speak Irish fluently.

But it's when these Gaelgoiri become zealots and start insisting that the rest of us should speak Irish, and that we are somehow less than Irish if we don't----that's where I have the problem

CC mentioned the word "inclusive" a lot in her speech. Unfortunately long swathes of her speech excluded a substantial number of her listeners who could not understand her

As for Irish being the "working language" of the Aras... I'm not sure how that will work.

It was definitely exclusively inclusive.

[midlander12]

That was funny.

Oliver Callan mentioned it this morning.

In her speech, CC referred to Michelle O'Neill as "Michelle Smith"

Oh dear

Like Albert Reynolds and "John Unionist"....

What's 'whoops' as Gaeilge?

[Clanrickard]

So I watched most of it on the Player last evening. One thing struck me forcibly; I could understand most of her Irish speech, which makes me part of a minority in the population. And I saw in the news that she apparently 'encouraged' her lunch guests to learn the language. Now I've nothing against Irish, as I say, I understood her pretty well, but I am very much opposed to any notion that those of us who speak the language are somehow more Irish than those who aren't. This smacks too much of elitism and a revival of Dev's Ireland Gaelic and pure for my liking. By all means let's keep the language alive, but as a choice, one among equals, in a distinctly multilingual society.

Irish is the national language. English has been spoken here as long as it has in England we should embrace it as our language. That said all government and public forms should be in Irish and all primary schools should be teaching through Irish. There is nothing wrong with being bilingual.

[Irish History]

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Let there be no ambiguity about this matter - English is a foreign language to Ireland and the Irish people.

Whilst there is nothing wrong with being multi/bilingual, it is unacceptable, or should be unacceptable that our native language Irish is not the working language of the country where it came into existence and evolved, Ireland. For Irish people to think otherwise is a nonsense.

Self-respect as Irish people and respect for or own country Ireland is what is missing, and it is missing because of the true nature of the Free State as established by the foreign British, and its subsequent lack of Irish leadership on this matter. What we have here is a prime example of the damaged psyche of the colonised Irish mind mirroring the desires of the English coloniser.

We know the historical reason for that but that shouldn't be an excuse for Irish people not speaking in our own native language today. Finland made their native language the working language of their country after throwing off the Russian yoke in 1917.

The reason we do not speak our own native language is because Ireland never regained its actual territorial independence. In the 1930's the Southern Ireland Gov, set up a committee headed by Pearse's sister to look into reviving the language, and the report finding was that if Irish was the working language in the south, it would make the reunification of Ireland more difficult to achieve. That is original reason why Irish has been just kept on life support in the south.

We should incentivise Irish people to use Irish - if there is an economic benefit to use Irish, people will use it - for one of the exact same reasons Irish people started to use the foreign language English in the first place.

Here is one simple idea that would work - the Irish government set up warehouse shops around the 32 counties of Ireland staffed by people who speak Irish where everything is at cost price/wholesale price or a huge discount - but in order to avail of the food/goods, you have to interact in Irish - even to get into the shop. People would be electronically tagged going in so that if they speak English to one another inside, they will be ejected (in the spirit of a game). Native Irish only free of foreign English zone. That's just one thing - and would create a MASSIVE BUZZ about Irish and get people talking Irish. Not going to save the world on its own but by God it would be a start and could be one of many other incentives.
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[SuirView]

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Let there be no ambiguity about this matter - English is a foreign language to Ireland and the Irish people.

Whilst there is nothing wrong with being multi/bilingual, it is unacceptable, or should be unacceptable that our native language Irish is not the working language of the country where it came into existence and evolved, Ireland. For Irish people to think otherwise is a nonsense.

Self-respect as Irish people and respect for or own country Ireland is what is missing, and it is missing because of the true nature of the Free State as established by the foreign British, and its subsequent lack of Irish leadership on this matter. What we have here is a prime example of the damaged psyche of the colonised Irish mind mirroring the desires of the English coloniser.

We know the historical reason for that but that shouldn't be an excuse for Irish people not speaking in our own native language today. Finland made their native language the working language of their country after throwing off the Russian yoke in 1917.

The reason we do not speak our own native language is because Ireland never regained its actual territorial independence. In the 1930's the Southern Ireland Gov, set up a committee headed by Pearse's sister to look into reviving the language, and the report finding was that if Irish was the working language in the south, it would make the reunification of Ireland more difficult to achieve. That is original reason why Irish has been just kept on life support in the south.

We should incentivise Irish people to use Irish - if there is an economic benefit to use Irish, people will use it, for one of the exact same reasons Irish people started to use the foreign language English in the first place.

Here is one simple idea that would work - the Irish government set up warehouse shops around the State staffed by people who speak Irish where everything is at cost price/wholesale price or a huge discount - but in order to avail of the food/goods, you have to interact in Irish - even to get into the shop. People would be electronically tagged going in so that if they speak English to one another inside, they will be ejected (in the spirit of a game). Native Irish only free of foreign English zone. That's just one thing - and would create a MASSIVE BUZZ about Irish and get people talking Irish. Not going to save the world on its own but by God it would be a start and could be one of many other incentives.
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Interesting, people being “electronically tagged” to get them to speak Irish! Why not just bring back the stick?
I told you before that you need to stop living in the past and move on!

[roc_enthusiast]

... unacceptable that our native language Irish is not the working language of the country where it came into existence and evolved...

In truth it "evolved" within a number of highly distinct dialects.

Munster Irish, Connacht Irish, Ulster Irish, Leinster Irish, Scots Irish, and Manx Irish.

Whereas your "standard" Irish or national Irish is an abomination imho. That evolved non-organically, mainly for political reasons, reflecting a mindset losing its "Irishness", and as an outgrowth of a particular flavour of nationalism (that has not served the country well, in truth).

It's actually a form of cultural imposition. It is the main reason the language is dying imho. It is the reason the language is being killed so as to be unrecoverable, including by the "cupla focal" crowd, who seem to be set on f ucking anglicising it more and more, year by year.

For that matter, your Shinners are a form of cultural imposition. I wish to god you'd go away, you are nothing but a stupid cult.

If we're talking about "evolving" that is the context we're really talking about.

So if you really want to save Irish, and most importantly its essence, you have to give back the historical Provinces their ownership of each outgrowth of the language that they each precipitated out of their respective identities.

Of course you are too in thrall to your particular dogma to understand any of this.

[Irish History]

In truth it "evolved" within a number of highly distinct dialects.
Munster Irish, Connacht Irish, Ulster Irish, Leinster Irish, Scots Irish, and Manx Irish.

As in Irish as in Gaelic dialects - meaning they are all the Irish language. So what do you imagine is your supposed point?

Whereas your "standard" Irish or national Irish is an abomination imho. That evolved non-organically, mainly for political reasons, reflecting a mindset losing its "Irishness", and as an outgrowth of a particular flavour of nationalism (that has not served the country well, in truth).

I refer you to your "imho" - for what it is worth. That's not much imho.

For that matter, your Shinners are a form of cultural imposition. I wish to god you'd go away, you are nothing but a stupid cult.

I have nothing to do with Sinn Fein or any other party - but if you remove the L out of the last word in your sentence "you are nothing but a stupid cult" and replace it with N - then that new sentence sums you up nicely.

So if you really want to save Irish, and most importantly its essence, you have to give back the historical Provinces their ownership of each outgrowth of the language that they each precipitated out of their respective identities.

There were no "respective identities" - they were all Gaelic as in Irish.

Of course you are too in thrall to your particular dogma to understand any of this.

I understand exactly what you are saying - and you are wrong. The same with your supposed point about reunification being unification.
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[roc_enthusiast]

Hmm.

It appears I was incorrect.

The dialectally differentiated variants of Irish only appeared after 1650.

Before that, 1200-1650, we had a professional class of scholars and poets who safeguarded against the natural regional transformations of the spoken language. In the name of preserving a learned written standard language.

The cause of the demise of this professional class and their task was of course the English.

Food for thought.

Well I will now go away and re-consider what I had previously thought.

[Irish History]

Hmm.

It appears I was incorrect.

The dialectally differentiated variants of Irish only appeared after 1650.

Before that, 1200-1650, we had a professional class of scholars and poets who safeguarded against the natural regional transformations of the spoken language. In the name of preserving a learned written standard language.

The cause of the demise of this professional class and their task was of course the English.

Food for thought.

Well I will now go away and re-consider what I had previously thought.

Thank you - and fair play to you for posting the above. I now take back swopping the L for N.
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[Statsman]

Irish is the national language. English has been spoken here as long as it has in England we should embrace it as our language. That said all government and public forms should be in Irish and all primary schools should be teaching through Irish. There is nothing wrong with being bilingual.

There's a load of research that shows clearly that education is a joint effort between parents and school, and that children whose parents actively engage in helping with homework, discussing want was done in class, reading aloud, and talking to their kids about the the things they are learning and providing practical applications for, say, maths or science (like having the kids help with cooking, or looking closely at the things they see in the park) will, on the whole, have much better outcomes. There's a reason why gaelscoileanna interview the parents of potential students, and that's to ensure that support in Irish at home will be available.

If all kids are taught through Irish, you make it harder for a large cohort of parents to engage in this way, and therefore potentially harm the educational outcomes for those kids. It would, in short, accentuate advantage for some kids and disadvantage for others.

If parents want their children educated through Irish, they need to send them to the local gaelscoil, if they want them educated through English, which is what the overwhelming majority go for, then that's their right, too. Imposing the language on people has never worked.

[Clanrickard]

If parents want their children educated through Irish, they need to send them to the local gaelscoil, if they want them educated through English, which is what the overwhelming majority go for, then that's their right, too. Imposing the language on people has never worked.

All languages are to some extent imposed. For example many Pakistanis want their children educated through English but must do Urdu as well. Irish is the national language and everyone should be forced to learn it. No ifs or buts otherwise why have it as national language. Like said we can be like Malta where people are bilingual. It would be handier for the kids there to speak English and not bother with Maltese but then Maltese dies out.

[Statsman]

All languages are to some extent imposed. For example many Pakistanis want their children educated through English but must do Urdu as well. Irish is the national language and everyone should be forced to learn it. No ifs or buts otherwise why have it as national language. Like said we can be like Malta where people are bilingual. It would be handier for the kids there to speak English and not bother with Maltese but then Maltese dies out.

'Forced'? Really? Sounds like you want to kill off any possible love for the language in people.

[midlander12]

'Forced'? Really? Sounds like you want to kill off any possible love for the language in people.

You'd wonder they never thought of that back in the 1920's.

[Clanrickard]

'Forced'? Really? Sounds like you want to kill off any possible love for the language in people.

Love? If everybody is going to primary school and using Irish everyone is on the same page. If all public forms are in Irish it becomes something you get sued to. If we are waiting for people to love the language it will be dead soon. Many things are imposed because for all the good will people have sometimes making things compulsory or banning them is the only way.

[SuirView]

Love? If everybody is going to primary school and using Irish everyone is on the same page. If all public forms are in Irish it becomes something you get sued to. If we are waiting for people to love the language it will be dead soon. Many things are imposed because for all the good will people have sometimes making things compulsory or banning them is the only way.

It’s doubtful that anyone will be sued over it!

[Statsman]

Love? If everybody is going to primary school and using Irish everyone is on the same page. If all public forms are in Irish it becomes something you get sued to. If we are waiting for people to love the language it will be dead soon. Many things are imposed because for all the good will people have sometimes making things compulsory or banning them is the only way.

First off, Irish is not the official language, it's an official language, albeit one of two. And it is most certainly not the lingua franca.

I suspect that a 70-year-old with little or no Irish trying to navigate the already ridiculously complicated form to apply for their GP-only Medical Card might not feel all that sanguine about 'getting used to it'. Or an 80-year-old looking for a grant to adapt their bathroom. They might well feel excluded in their own country by a bunch of Gaelgoir elitists.

If people wish to conduct their business with the state through Irish, that is their perfect right.

If they want to do so through English, that is also their perfect right. And any attempt to forcibly remove that right would be unjust and likely unenforceable.