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Roe v Wade to be overturned?

The burning issues of the day
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Scotty
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#26

Post by Scotty »

schmittel wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:26 am The tweet says: "Misoprostol is relatively easy to acquire from veterinary sources"
Noooo, the tweet says "Horse drugs are good now guys".

It then shows images of tweets relating to two scenarios that are completely different, one a comment on someone spreading misinformation, the other showing a clickbait snippet of an article they've published. Do you honestly not see the "horse drugs are good now" comment, comparing the two, as moronic?

schmittel wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:26 am Fair enough, not a recommendation...

;) Thank you!


schmittel wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:26 am We can assume they think you should try and get it from the doctor in the first instance.
No need to assume, they say it in the article...
"people should seek out help from established health organizations"
The article is merely highlighting the fact that if services are withdrawn, desperate women will take desperate measures.
knownunknown
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturne

#27

Post by knownunknown »

So Ruth Bader Ginsberg believed that roe vs Wade wasn’t strong enough to stand up to challenge and wanted it replaced by some other legislation that protected a woman’s right to abortion. She was a former Supreme Court judge who died recently, she is somewhat a hero of the left and she believed that right to abortion was tied into women’s equality rather than privacy, as it currently stands.

https://www.salon.com/2022/05/06/ruth-b ... oe-v-wade/

The new Supreme Court justice sworn in this year by Bidens admin, Ketanji Brown wasn’t even able to define woman.
knownunknown
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#28

Post by knownunknown »

Man was stopped while attempting to kill justice Kavanagh, caught with burgling equipment and guns and weapons outside his home. He confessed to being upset at the leaked roe vs wade decision and the recent gun shootings so he decided he wanted to kill kavanaugh.

Does this make those people who spread lies about him culpable for inciting violence? I don’t think so but that’s the way things seem to work these days. It does show how these political attacks can incite hatred and violence when it’s not even warranted. The mainstream media have a lot to answer for.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va ... t-justice/
ancapailldorcha
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#29

Post by ancapailldorcha »

knownunknown wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:36 pm Man was stopped while attempting to kill justice Kavanagh, caught with burgling equipment and guns and weapons outside his home. He confessed to being upset at the leaked roe vs wade decision and the recent gun shootings so he decided he wanted to kill kavanaugh.

Does this make those people who spread lies about him culpable for inciting violence? I don’t think so but that’s the way things seem to work these days. It does show how these political attacks can incite hatred and violence when it’s not even warranted. The mainstream media have a lot to answer for.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va ... t-justice/
Thoughts and prayers should be enough, no? It's enough for the relatives of murdered children.
knownunknown
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#30

Post by knownunknown »

Bad takes on Twitter galore about how Ruth bader Ginsberg is to blame. That she should have retired earlier to allow a liberal to replace her. She was waiting for the first woman president(Hilary) so that she would be guaranteed a nominee. Opinion at the time had Clinton at near certainty to win.

Right to abortion was probably the topic closest to her heart but she didn’t believe it was done properly. She said it should be based on the right to choose rather than the right to privacy and it looks like she has been proven correct now that there is no longer a liberal majority on the court.

Interestingly I was reading about a case she undertook shortly before the Roe ruling in which a female military pilot was forced to have an abortion, RBG was defending her right not to have one. She believed this sort of case should be the foundation for the right to an abortion, as a right to choose. Struck v. Secretary of Defense This would have massive implications in other areas such as drugs and conscription.

The woke are very vicious and nasty people and show their true colours in situations like this. They will just spit on the graves of previous heroes for no reason whatsoever other then to vent some anger.




https://nypost.com/2022/06/24/after-roe ... -ginsburg/
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#31

Post by Hairy-Joe »

It seems to me that world politics is going back to the extremisation that was seen in the 1920's and 1930's. The middle ground is getting squeezed and silenced by both right and left. This whole thing is an example of this.

We all know what happened after the right of extremes in the 1920's and 1930's. I'm thinking Ukraine could be like 1938 and 1939 with the roles reversed...
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#32

Post by Hairy-Joe »

Also, forgot to say. As a bloke, I don't feel I can tell a woman what medical procedures to have or not to have. As a scientist rather than a medical expert, I can not tell anyone what medical procedures to have or not to have. So how can a Bible thumper of a priest or politician tell a woman she can not have a specific medical procedure when he's not a doctor?

Also, if abortion is legal, it's not forced on anyone. If you believe it to be wrong, then don't have it. Just dont force your belief on someone else.
PlaneSpeeking
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#33

Post by PlaneSpeeking »

Fabulous slot from Bill Maher on Monday night expounding exactly that - there is no sensible middle ground!!

There was a cracking lesbian podcaster on there who said that when the "right" do something like ban abortion - the left push for puberty blockers for 12 year olds without parental consent - it's a race to the loony bin!!!!

There needs to be a centrist leader not evangelical nutters like De Santis on one side and AOC/Kamala on the other.

Americky is fucked - and we're next.
knownunknown
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#34

Post by knownunknown »

The US may have polarised extremes but we have a middle ground that is expressly hostile to anything on the left or right of it and I’m not sure which is better.

When our middle ground is ‘abortions for everyone’ then the other side of the argument doesn’t get much of a hearing.

This identity politics argument, ‘sure only women should have a say about it’ is like saying only men should vote about war because they’re the ones that die in it. It’s a ridiculous form of argument. Should a woman who can no longer give birth not get a say about it either?
PlaneSpeeking
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#35

Post by PlaneSpeeking »

knownunknown wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:28 pm The US may have polarised extremes but we have a middle ground that is expressly hostile to anything on the left or right of it and I’m not sure which is better.

When our middle ground is ‘abortions for everyone’ then the other side of the argument doesn’t get much of a hearing.

This identity politics argument, ‘sure only women should have a say about it’ is like saying only men should vote about war because they’re the ones that die in it. It’s a ridiculous form of argument. Should a woman who can no longer give birth not get a say about it either?
Excellent point - I voted to repeal the 8th, but I don't think I would personally have an abortion. I believe if a pregnancy is ended the two people who made it, should decide. I don't believe that one parent matters more than the other - whether from conception or in custody matters.

I also enthusiastically voted for equal marriage - but I'm straight, should I not have weighed in ?

I actually can't remember who saud this about abortion - I think Bill Clinton ? - abortion should be "safe, legal and rare". Agreed.

Contraception needs to be widely available and free if possible - and sex education needs to feck right off with the pronoun crowd and get back to "he sticks that there, you're not on the pill and he's not wrapped - you've 18 years of responsibiity".
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Memento Mori
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#36

Post by Memento Mori »

A few thoughts... The legal position in the US after the overturn of Roe is in effect the same as it is here after the repeal of the 8th - it is for the elected legislature to decide. Jubilation at repeal, fury at the overturning of Roe from those in favour of abortion. Interesting.

It looks like abortion in a not insignificant number of states will become much more restricted and perhaps banned. I believe this is good news for humanity and many more people will not have their lives so cruelly snuffed out. It is a sad state of affairs that so many women feel it necessary to, in effect, sacrifice the life of their child in order to have a fulfilled life/career (or even just to cope/survive) despite us living in probably the best and safest environment to have a child the world has yet seen.
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Memento Mori
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#37

Post by Memento Mori »

Hairy-Joe wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:19 am Also, forgot to say. As a bloke, I don't feel I can tell a woman what medical procedures to have or not to have. As a scientist rather than a medical expert, I can not tell anyone what medical procedures to have or not to have. So how can a Bible thumper of a priest or politician tell a woman she can not have a specific medical procedure when he's not a doctor?

Also, if abortion is legal, it's not forced on anyone. If you believe it to be wrong, then don't have it. Just dont force your belief on someone else.
This position only makes sense if you do not believe that the unborn child constitutes a life, but rather believe it to be something akin to a skin tag or something that one may choose to have removed. This is of course not the case, and the "its none of my business" line is something of a cowards way out.

When there is a violation of the most fundamental of human rights - life - then it most certainly is the business of other people.

"If you believe it to be wrong, then don't have it. Just dont force your belief on someone else."

Why do you not apply this logic to other laws and customs humanity "enforces" on others? In particular the ones you happen to agree with?
marhay70
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#38

Post by marhay70 »

Fundamentalist Protestants and 12th century RCs have at last found something they can agree on, only need the Jihadis now to complete the set.
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#39

Post by Hairy-Joe »

Memento Mori wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:44 pm This position only makes sense if you do not believe that the unborn child constitutes a life, but rather believe it to be something akin to a skin tag or something that one may choose to have removed. This is of course not the case, and the "its none of my business" line is something of a cowards way out.

When there is a violation of the most fundamental of human rights - life - then it most certainly is the business of other people.

"If you believe it to be wrong, then don't have it. Just dont force your belief on someone else."

Why do you not apply this logic to other laws and customs humanity "enforces" on others? In particular the ones you happen to agree with?
Well, when does life begin? That's the question. The Roman Catholic church believe that life begins at conception while Judaism doesn't believe that life begins at conception. The foetus is only a person at birth. So, in these days of religious freedom, wouldn't a ban on abortion be religious discrimination? This shows that you have to account for all beliefs, not just the narrow Catholic fundamentalist view.

There are plenty of laws and customs I dont believe in. I express my displeasure in the ballot box and take my beating when my position looses the popular vote (eg surrogacy should be recognised for both parents, not just one half after fighting in court, adoption and parents being recognised for same sex couples, etc),

Anyways, it's a woman's choice as to what to do, not for a man to tell her.....
mmercedes84
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#40

Post by mmercedes84 »

Memento Mori wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:44 pm This position only makes sense if you do not believe that the unborn child constitutes a life, but rather believe it to be something akin to a skin tag or something that one may choose to have removed. This is of course not the case, and the "its none of my business" line is something of a cowards way out.

When there is a violation of the most fundamental of human rights - life - then it most certainly is the business of other people.

"If you believe it to be wrong, then don't have it. Just dont force your belief on someone else."

Why do you not apply this logic to other laws and customs humanity "enforces" on others? In particular the ones you happen to agree with?
This is exactly where I struggle with this.
When is a life not a life , and why is allowed up to a certain week number but afterwards it's not.
Got to say my opinion greyed on this when heard my first child's heartbeat at 8 weeks or so.

I think a lot of the opinion is formed by this question - do you consider it life or not. Saying it's the individual decision is then complex as effectively some view it as 2 life's at that point.
Those against abortion would view it similar to how a newborn baby cannot look after them selves and is the parents responsibility to ensure that baby lives and is cared for. They view this starting point of responsibility at conception not birth.

And this is exactly where I struggle with this , when is life deemed life. Not for and against but over the years I've learned to see both sides of this and think its very complex issue.
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Memento Mori
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#41

Post by Memento Mori »

Hairy-Joe wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:17 pm Well, when does life begin? That's the question. The Roman Catholic church believe that life begins at conception while Judaism doesn't believe that life begins at conception. The foetus is only a person at birth. So, in these days of religious freedom, wouldn't a ban on abortion be religious discrimination? This shows that you have to account for all beliefs, not just the narrow Catholic fundamentalist view.
The idea that a unique human life "begins" at conception is not a "narrow Catholic fundamentalist view". In fact, this is a widely shared viewpoint among the scientific and medical community. Although, it must be said that such considerations do cross into the philosophical and theological domain also, and those truths should be considered.
There are plenty of laws and customs I dont believe in. I express my displeasure in the ballot box and take my beating when my position looses the popular vote (eg surrogacy should be recognised for both parents, not just one half after fighting in court, adoption and parents being recognised for same sex couples, etc),
I am sure there are, but you have missed the point. If I said laws about speed limits should be abolished; "if you don't like going 120mph, don't" or the like you would surely object and see that such an attitude would undermine our basis for societal order.
Anyways, it's a woman's choice as to what to do, not for a man to tell her.....
This is a feeble argument, because it collapses once the parameters are expanded just a little, and it becomes clear that the exponents of such a view point are not uber libertarian anarchists who believe there should be no laws etc. You think it should be a woman's (careful now, men can get pregnant too now in our brave new world) choice in this one particular instance. As such, broad statements like the above just won't cut it in this case.
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Memento Mori
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#42

Post by Memento Mori »

mmercedes84 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:26 pm This is exactly where I struggle with this.
When is a life not a life , and why is allowed up to a certain week number but afterwards it's not.
Got to say my opinion greyed on this when heard my first child's heartbeat at 8 weeks or so.

I think a lot of the opinion is formed by this question - do you consider it life or not. Saying it's the individual decision is then complex as effectively some view it as 2 life's at that point.
Those against abortion would view it similar to how a newborn baby cannot look after them selves and is the parents responsibility to ensure that baby lives and is cared for. They view this starting point of responsibility at conception not birth.

And this is exactly where I struggle with this , when is life deemed life. Not for and against but over the years I've learned to see both sides of this and think its very complex issue.
Is it complex, or are the implications of the answer to where life begins simply inconvenient, uncomfortable and messy for some?

I think it all comes down to whether you view the unborn child as being a living individual, a human life. The view that it is not until the second the child is actually born is very much a minority opinion. Of course, many abortions are inflicted on those babies whose lives are deemed less than perfect, the disabled.
mmercedes84
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#43

Post by mmercedes84 »

Memento Mori wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:22 pm Is it complex, or are the implications of the answer to where life begins simply inconvenient, uncomfortable and messy for some?

I think it all comes down to whether you view the unborn child as being a living individual, a human life. The view that it is not until the second the child is actually born is very much a minority opinion. Of course, many abortions are inflicted on those babies whose lives are deemed less than perfect, the disabled.
As I said this is where I struggle with it. What is this cut off point of human life existing. However it is complex , two lives are biologically dependant until the baby is born.
What I'f there is a medical emergency and the mother life is at significant risk without aborting the baby.

Who then should determine not to intervene to save the mothers life.
What if a teenage girl is raped and then commits suicide as she is forced to carry pregnancy to term - why was her life lesser importance to the foetus.

It's not black and white on either side and yes it's messy and I think complex.

I think it's swung in opposite direction now where there is no discussion about the abortion of life and it's viewed quite procedurally. Abortions are viewed now as not the termination of life by vast majority. That still doesn't sit well with me when I can hear a heartbeat at 8 weeks.

That said we live in a democracy and this has been decided as societal norm.
JayZeus
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#44

Post by JayZeus »

I think it would have been preferable to legally allow an elective abortion by an expectant mother rather than to consign both to the ‘homes’ provided by the malevolent religious orders who dominated the lives of so many.

While I’m not generally ‘pro choice’ on an all or nothing type basis, I’m certainly in favour of a mother having the freedom to choose to have an abortion in specific circumstances. The problem as I’d see it is that the Catholic Church continue to blatantly interfere in the states provision of healthcare services and push their religious ethos at every opportunity. Look as the debacle with the new maternity hospital for every support necessary to have this point stand up to all but the most fervent religious nutcases counterpoints.

So while the Catholic Church still meddle in the wellbeing of families, mothers and children, I’ll go ‘all in’ and say that I’d rather support free choice than leave a Catholicism guided panel/board etc., operating in hospitals where the rotten Catholic Church still have ANY influence in the position where they can influence the outcome.

So yeah, kill the babies if you want, just don’t pay any heed anywhere along the line to anyone operating under Catholic ethos or doctrine.

Sure aren’t they just the pot calling the kettle black? Child abusers, busy for decades filling septic tanks with hundreds of neglected babies bodies, protecting their own from punishment and any kind of true justice?

As time marches on, those despicable people and their ‘faithful’ will become less and less relevant. They’ll die off and we’ll all be thankful when there’s not enough of them left to have any effective influence over the affairs of people and their families.

Clergy and those in orders know nothing of family life except what they’re told, observe or blindly accept. The fools who think those people know any more than anyone else about real life, they’re just as useless, when it comes to matters of law and the common good.

And the common good may well be to let pregnant women make the decision, without interference from people who believe nonsense from a religion where they believe mary was a virgin, to take just one simple and incredibly flipping relevant point.
knownunknown
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#45

Post by knownunknown »

JayZeus wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:31 am I think it would have been preferable to legally allow an elective abortion by an expectant mother rather than to consign both to the ‘homes’ provided by the malevolent religious orders who dominated the lives of so many.
For me making contraceptives relatively inaccessible was the worse crime or the 1929 censorship of publications act which banned literature that advocated birth control. Censorship is the real evil. One that every institution with power ever has engaged in, to the detriment of the good of the people.

I’m glad the Catholic Church has lost that power it once had to dictate policy but I’m not so sure I’d be happy to see them wiped out. They are one of the last institutions that hasn’t gone woke.
JayZeus
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#46

Post by JayZeus »

It’s not about ‘woke’. That’s a lazy modern argument if ever there was one, to be blunt.

The institution commit evil acts. Has done for centuries. That’s enough to warrant their removal from ANY official role in the education, health and wellbeing of citizens.
knownunknown
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#47

Post by knownunknown »

JayZeus wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:44 pm It’s not about ‘woke’. That’s a lazy modern argument if ever there was one, to be blunt.

The institution commit evil acts. Has done for centuries. That’s enough to warrant their removal from ANY official role in the education, health and wellbeing of citizens.
Call it what you want but this push to be politically correct at all costs is a much greater threat to the world then the Catholic Church. They simply don’t have the power anymore. There’s a greater chance of you being done for hate speech then blasphemy. All the same thing though people trying to dictate what others can and can’t listen to. The death of humour, satire and truth itself, all in a push to enforce an ideology, if this isn’t woke then what would you call it?

Woke ; alert to injustice.

Meant in a ‘so alert to injustice’ as to walk up and attack a comedian on stage because your sensibilities have been offended.
marhay70
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Re: Roe v Wade to be overturned?

#48

Post by marhay70 »

mmercedes84 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:01 pm As I said this is where I struggle with it. What is this cut off point of human life existing. However it is complex , two lives are biologically dependant until the baby is born.
What I'f there is a medical emergency and the mother life is at significant risk without aborting the baby.

Who then should determine not to intervene to save the mothers life.
What if a teenage girl is raped and then commits suicide as she is forced to carry pregnancy to term - why was her life lesser importance to the foetus.

It's not black and white on either side and yes it's messy and I think complex.

I think it's swung in opposite direction now where there is no discussion about the abortion of life and it's viewed quite procedurally. Abortions are viewed now as not the termination of life by vast majority. That still doesn't sit well with me when I can hear a heartbeat at 8 weeks.

That said we live in a democracy and this has been decided as societal norm.
I have never met anybody who is pro abortion, just for the sake of it. I am not pro abortion for the sake of it, but do i think abortion should be freely available? Yes.
I don't listen to the craw thumpers of the RCC, the RCC is irrelevant to me and to many people of this country. It seems they are selective in their choice of what constitutes justifiable termination of life. To do it when that life has no chance of progression is a nono, but to terminate it by starvation and brutality is ok.
I have nothing but sympathy for young girls, or even older women, who find themselves in the predicament of having to terminate a pregnancy but I do think that the life in existence, and no, I don't believe the crap that a life is present at conception and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of scientists and medics don't believe that either, despite what has been alleged earlier in the thread, is the life that should be saved.
On another note, what about spontaneous abortion or miscarriage, whose decision is that, in what week of the pregnancy has it been ordained that that should no longer happen? There are so many grey areas in this debate that one could be forgiven for throwing hands in the air and giving up.
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