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Burke family, Castlebar

The burning issues of the day
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#76

Post by Hairy-Joe »

Well, he's appeals the original "stay away from the school" order and interestingly not appealing against the contempt order.

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2022/100 ... igh-court/
gugleguy
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#77

Post by gugleguy »

Tool.
knownunknown
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#78

Post by knownunknown »

“ The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”


― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman
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artybike
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#79

Post by artybike »

knownunknown wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:37 pm “ The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”


― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman
Indeed. The latest is, he's had to be moved for his own safety as he's annoying other prisoners
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/educati ... -1.3928544

I had naively suggested to folk in my church, 'maybe prison will be a catalyst. He'll have a heart for his fellow prisoners etc.'. Folk who knew them personally said, 'That'd be nice, but I doubt it'. They were right alas

I cannot help thinking that if he left, his family wouldn't be pleased at all. They finally have a bona fide martyr in the family after years of trying....
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Del.Monte
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#80

Post by Del.Monte »

Funny, they look like quite normal looking kids - goes to show.
'no more blah blah blah'
knownunknown
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#81

Post by knownunknown »

artybike wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:16 pm Indeed. The latest is, he's had to be moved for his own safety as he's annoying other prisoners
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/educati ... -1.3928544

I had naively suggested to folk in my church, 'maybe prison will be a catalyst. He'll have a heart for his fellow prisoners etc.'. Folk who knew them personally said, 'That'd be nice, but I doubt it'. They were right alas

I cannot help thinking that if he left, his family wouldn't be pleased at all. They finally have a bona fide martyr in the family after years of trying....
Interesting article. It says that NUIG removed the ban for life against the siblings the day before the court case. What were they doing wrong, putting up a few posters?

Banning them for life from all societies seems like it was a punitive measure to take which they caved into once a proper legal court case was taken against them. The unreasonable man got the progress that was needed.
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#82

Post by Hairy-Joe »

knownunknown wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:11 pm Interesting article. It says that NUIG removed the ban for life against the siblings the day before the court case. What were they doing wrong, putting up a few posters?

Banning them for life from all societies seems like it was a punitive measure to take which they caved into once a proper legal court case was taken against them. The unreasonable man got the progress that was needed.
From what I remember from the coverage, they were using college funds through the society inappropriately. The college gives college societies funds to run the society, but they have to be spent correctly (fairness, spent on society activity, not spent on themselves, etc). They choose to ignore the rules they didn't like.
Mirabeau
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#83

Post by Mirabeau »

What I want to know is:
If he gets bummed in prison, does that mean he is going to hell?
knownunknown
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#84

Post by knownunknown »

Hairy-Joe wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:36 pm From what I remember from the coverage, they were using college funds through the society inappropriately. The college gives college societies funds to run the society, but they have to be spent correctly (fairness, spent on society activity, not spent on themselves, etc). They choose to ignore the rules they didn't like.
There’s mention of that in the article too but the college’s backtracking on the ban would suggest that this was just used as a pretence to ban them from other activities. If they had improperly used funds then their ban should remain in place.

Have you got any details about this?
Fratello
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#85

Post by Fratello »

Mirabeau wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:03 pm What I want to know is:
If he gets bummed in prison, does that mean he is going to hell?
I'd be more concerned that he might fall in with the wrong crowd and get caught up in gangland stuff.
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#86

Post by Hairy-Joe »

Fratello wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:44 pm I'd be more concerned that he might fall in with the wrong crowd and get caught up in gangland stuff.
Na, he'll convert all the gangland people into good God fearing christians and they'll work for the benefit of their fellow man, following the "good book"
knownunknown
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#87

Post by knownunknown »

I was looking for some details from what happened at NUIG, found this although it seems to be written by someone favourable to the Burkes.
“ In late 2014, the university initiated a disciplinary process against the Burkes, accusing them of improperly using €325 from the Christian Union account to pay for flyers. The Burkes were subsequently banned for life from all student societies.

On Monday 10 November 2014, Christian students Isaac Burke, Kezia Burke, Enoch Burke and Ammi Burke were banned for life from all student societies at NUI Galway. The unprecedented and shock ruling is believed to have been the first of its kind in the history of the university.“
https://burkebroadcast.com/case-overview/

This was after a harassment campaign against them that allegedly NUIG did nothing about, it sounds like exactly something that would go on over on boards, I’m not surprised this shit happens in universities.

Do I believe in their religious stuff, absolutely not but they should have every right to put up a few posters and hand out a few flyers, especially when these are the flyers/posters(https://www.flickr.com/photos/141769077@N02) I don’t want to live in a country that attacks people for putting up such posters under different pretexts, banning them for life and calling them names. It’s what the religious have done throughout time. They would be excommunicated and called heathens. Now it’s contrarian, religious western baptist, misogynist, who gets banned for life.

The woke and the religious hate each other because they’re so bloody similar.
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#88

Post by Hairy-Joe »

knownunknown wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:11 pm I was looking for some details from what happened at NUIG, found this although it seems to be written by someone favourable to the Burkes.



https://burkebroadcast.com/case-overview/

This was after a harassment campaign against them that allegedly NUIG did nothing about, it sounds like exactly something that would go on over on boards, I’m not surprised this shit happens in universities.

Do I believe in their religious stuff, absolutely not but they should have every right to put up a few posters and hand out a few flyers, especially when these are the flyers/posters(https://www.flickr.com/photos/141769077@N02) I don’t want to live in a country that attacks people for putting up such posters under different pretexts, banning them for life and calling them names. It’s what the religious have done throughout time. They would be excommunicated and called heathens. Now it’s contrarian, religious western baptist, misogynist, who gets banned for life.

The woke and the religious hate each other because they’re so bloody similar.
This is a lot more balanced report

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-a ... -1.4735759

They didn't follow the rules they didn't like
knownunknown
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#89

Post by knownunknown »

Hairy-Joe wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 1:26 pm This is a lot more balanced report

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-a ... -1.4735759

They didn't follow the rules they didn't like
Seems a really weird summary there Joe not following rules they didn’t like could just as easily have been an error which leads me to believe the actions of banning them for life were punitive. From that article,

“ USCG said the ban arose because the Burkes distributed leaflets using the college logo which was against the college’s code of conduct and used college funds to pay for the leaflets and, by doing so, misrepresented the college. It also claimed they had shown no willingness to engage with an investigation committee and provided misleading information.

“ Judge Groarke was satisfied there were many procedural flaws in USCG’s handling of the matter and those were the result of “extraordinary and inexcusable” lack of knowledge of fair or proper procedures.” Sounds like planks, if they don’t like your opinion you get banned for low level trolling, they are university types too.

Remember the leaflets came to the tune of only 325 quid, and the Burkes themselves had lodged complaints of threats against them already.
The more I read on this the more it only confirms that the university were in fact punishing them for holding opinions. How anyone could see otherwise is beyond me, how do you explain these facts away?
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#90

Post by Hairy-Joe »

I think what you've bolded shows why.

From running college societies in the past if there's been an error, a "hands up, sorry" approach tended to solve things with the college authorities. The misleading really didn't help them and the college threw the book at them.
knownunknown
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#91

Post by knownunknown »

Hairy-Joe wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:38 pm I think what you've bolded shows why.

From running college societies in the past if there's been an error, a "hands up, sorry" approach tended to solve things with the college authorities. The misleading really didn't help them and the college threw the book at them.
Kind of like what happens on planks in the dispute place, if someone thinks they are being treated unfairly they generally get quite defensive. The judge admitted a lack of knowledge of fair procedures against them. I think they should have complied with the authorities but it was their right not to and shouldn’t have been penalised because of it.

Funny there are more mentions of this story in other languages then there is in English on Google in the last week, with one Croatian site asking,

“At the beginning of September, the news spread around the world that Irish teacher Enoch Burke was arrested and imprisoned after he refused to obey his principal's order and use the neutral pronoun "they" when addressing a student who was in the process of "changing gender". The portals in charge of correcting misinformation reacted quickly with the explanation that the use of an inappropriate pronoun was not the reason for the arrest, but contempt of court (Prof. Burke, despite the suspension, came to work). The obligation to be addressed by the preferred pronouns is not de jure prescribed by any law in Ireland, but the headmaster of the school considered it the norm.

Does the employer or the state have the right to ask the employee to address a person with a "gender neutral" pronoun, according to the employee's request?”
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#92

Post by Hairy-Joe »

knownunknown wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 6:51 am
Does the employer or the state have the right to ask the employee to address a person with a "gender neutral" pronoun, according to the employee's request?”
Employers can ask for employees to use certain language as part of their duties. Plenty of fast food establishments have a standard greeting that employees are to use "Welcome to X, can I take your order?", "Have you considered adding Y to your order?", etc. I've heard restaurants referring to customers as "patrons" (a neutral word) and no-one is running to court.

Also, if an employee identifies as and wants to be addressed as male/female/other and other employees don't follow, it could be taken as workplace bullying and gender discrimination, leaving the employer open to legal action unless stopped.
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#93

Post by Hairy-Joe »

Anyway, has anyone heard is Enoch still a guest of the state?
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#94

Post by Hairy-Joe »

Well, it appears that he's still a guest of the state.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/cou ... 15998.html

It's behind a paywall but the headline is enough
Jack The Stripper
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#95

Post by Jack The Stripper »

This whole gender thing not just this case but that politition who said there is now nine genders needs to give a few months cutting turf in the bog.
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#96

Post by Hairy-Joe »

The gender thing is a complete red herring when it comes to him being in Jail. He's in jail for not giving an undertaking not to go to the school while the discipline proceedings are underway. All he has to do is say he won't go to the school.....
knownunknown
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#97

Post by knownunknown »

Hairy-Joe wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:43 pm The gender thing is a complete red herring when it comes to him being in Jail. He's in jail for not giving an undertaking not to go to the school while the discipline proceedings are underway. All he has to do is say he won't go to the school.....
The gender thing is the main issue. Without it there would never have been a problem in the first place. Difficult to deny that.
Hairy-Joe
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#98

Post by Hairy-Joe »

knownunknown wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:11 pm The gender thing is the main issue. Without it there would never have been a problem in the first place. Difficult to deny that.
There is two issues. The first is the preferred pronouns. The second is the failure to obey a court order. He's in jail for not saying he'd obey a court order.
knownunknown
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#99

Post by knownunknown »

Hairy-Joe wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:14 pm There is two issues. The first is the preferred pronouns. The second is the failure to obey a court order. He's in jail for not saying he'd obey a court order.
In jail currently indefinitely for turning up to work when he was told not to(while still being paid). It is not a reasonable punishment. The school could have allowed him to protest without involving the gardai. He wasn’t hurting anyone by turning up to school in an empty classroom. They removed his right to protest the suspension. Do you honestly think it’s a fair punishment to have been locked up since October probably in solitary and probably until February, does that not strike you as punitive? The constitution guarantees a speedy hearing and is not something he is getting.
knownunknown
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Re: Burke family, Castlebar

#100

Post by knownunknown »

Apparently you can question someone’s pronouns and their non binary status without being labelled a bigot, there are reasons to do so.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-new ... -rcna58969
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