Former Pope is dead, the one that ignored child abuse cases

[PogMoThoin22]

Just getting that in there before it gets whitewashed!

[678904673]

A good man. If he was guilty of anything it was loving his Church & People too much.

I will be making no further comment on his passing at this time

[Setanta]

Is he the one,what used be a nazi?

RIP

[PogMoThoin22]

Is he the one,what used be a nazi?

RIP

I wouldn't hold that against him, he was young and fascism was all the rage.

I would hold this against him though. not a good man in my eyes
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60070132

[PogMoThoin22]

The Irish Times aren't letting him away with it
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/2022/1 ... n-ireland/

[Mirabeau]

"The one that ignored child abuse" doesn't narrow it down.
Anyone that defends this institution of child rape needs to have a word with themselves.

[PogMoThoin22]

Saw a comment elsewhere though it was brilliant. "Great chess player. Could move pieces around so none of them were caught"

[Memento Mori]

An amazing theologian, one of the most significant of the last 100-plus years. He was most at home in that arena, the world of theology, philosophy and books, rather than that of governing and administration. He seems to have realised this in the end, hence his stepping down as Pope.

[DeletedUser]

You mean the first one ever to highlight the issue - but never let the facts get in the way of sad cunts like your agenda eh ?

[DeletedUser]

Is he the one,what used be a nazi?

RIP

No.Prick.

[DeletedUser]

Saw a comment elsewhere though it was brilliant. "Great chess player. Could move pieces around so none of them were caught"

feck off eh ??

Happy to take whatever ban needed to defend my faith.

[PogMoThoin22]

An amazing theologian, one of the most significant of the last 100-plus years. He was most at home in that arena, the world of theology, philosophy and books, rather than that of governing and administration. He seems to have realised this in the end, hence his stepping down as Pope.

LOL, He was an extreme homophobe who called gay marriage a "threat to world peace", opposed condoms to prevent HIV and shielded pedo priests despite knowing they abused kids

[PogMoThoin22]

It's not a misspell it's internet slang get with it dinosaur https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pedo

[Setanta]

feck off eh ??

Happy to take whatever ban needed to defend my faith.

TBF,yous are defending an institution (which behaved awlfully here and elsewhere-admittedely may been an culture back then,seems to be as regards other institutions & child abuse) and it's leader,with noone posting as regards the underlying faith/religious element of it


Though I did see,he is regarded as the person whom coined the phrase 'gendar idology',he was about 40 years too late becoming pope,he's not wrong inherently,just looked at world through lense of a different era...... realistically next pope should be under 60 to try keep church into modern era/relevant

[Memento Mori]

LOL, He was an extreme homophobe who called gay marriage a "threat to world peace", opposed condoms to prevent HIV and shielded pedo priests despite knowing they abused kids

?

He is pretty much universally regarded as a talented theologian, even by those who disagree with him, I'm not sure why that statement deserves a "lol".

He did believe that attacks on the family unit, and on biological reality, and indeed the emergence of what is now best termed the "culture of self-invention" posed severe threats to the stability and future of civilization. He stated the following 13 years ago in the speech/remarks you allude to - showing a considerable amount of foresight in my opinion, at a time before much of the trans issues that have come to the fore today:

One such attack comes from laws or proposals which, in the name of fighting discrimination, strike at the biological basis of the difference between the sexes.
Yet freedom cannot be absolute, since man is not God, but the image of God, God’s creation. For man, the path to be taken cannot be determined by caprice or willfulness, but must rather correspond to the structure willed by the Creator.

Reducing his (and indeed Catholic) theological arguments and positions in such a superficial fashion as you have done is a disservice - mostly to yourself.

Benedict XVI does have a mixed legacy on the abuse situation. While he vigorously denied any wrongdoing in his time in Germany the claims do look to have been legitimately made in good faith by the commission of investigation, rather than being scurrilous slander. These allegations however would seem to indicate a lack of interest along with an understanding of pedophilia in keeping with the time and place (namely that it was a condition that could be resolved with therapy, and in a country that was home to the horrific Kentler Experimenthttps://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021 ... pedophiles) rather than a deliberate effort to shield or protect pedophiles or to deliberately facilitate their continued abuse. Nevertheless, if he were guilty of what he was accused of (which he vigorously denied) it is most certainly a black mark.

However, he was also the Pope who seriously engaged with the issue, one recalls his pastoral letter to Ireland pointing out that Bishops and abusers have done more damage to obscure the message of Christ than centuries of brutal oppression did (the Penal days). Can one have done wrong things in the past and still be judged to be a good person in an overall sense? Christianity tells us that this is the case for every good person who ever lived - that they have sinned - save Christ and his mother.

[Memento Mori]

TBF,yous are defending an institution (which behaved awlfully here and elsewhere-admittedely may been an culture back then,seems to be as regards other institutions & child abuse) and it's leader,with noone posting as regards the underlying faith/religious element of it


Though I did see,he is regarded as the person whom coined the phrase 'gendar idology',he was about 40 years too late becoming pope,he's not wrong inherently,just looked at world through lense of a different era...... realistically next pope should be under 60 to try keep church into modern era/relevant

There is something most remarkable about so many members of an institution committing heinous acts that they know are not only wrong and against the rules of an institution, but are contrary to the laws of God, and could well serve to deliver their souls to eternal torment. Could these people have actually believed in God? Is it the case of parents encouraging their "odd" children to join? Did they deliberately join to find an avenue to abuse, with easy access and the "shield" of respectability that membership of such an institution gave them? It's all so strange.

Two factors exacerbated the abuse crisis: "legitimate" church authorities (i.e. not pedophiles themselves) seem to have decided that pedophilia was an illness more than a normal crime, and decided that sending offenders to therapy to be "cured" was the solution, and that these "ill" people could be rehabilitated. And that it was best for all concerned to keep this quiet, both for the "ill" perpetrator and for the victim. This approach, evil as it was, was not totally out of keeping with mainstream psychology at the time, and it offered a neat solution for the authorities to "get rid" of such a horrible issue off of their desks - many levels of church authority just did not want to know and just passed the issue on. This is not a unique phenomenon - I'm sure many of us have forwarded on an email and washed our hands of it, glad that it had "nothing to do" with us and was above our paygrades. Another example of this institutional paralysis was evident over the cervical check scandal where there was much back and forth about who should tell the patients about their smear checks.

Everyone would have been better served if the Church went medieval style and dished out punishment.

In terms of institutions in general, there have been changes in attitude, with much emphasis on risk and the adoption of a general attitude that "its better we discover our misdeeds than someone else does" with most institutions having vigorous internal audit and compliance functions.

The second factor is that abusers also came to occupy positions of authority - and carried out and facilitated abuse.

[Setanta]

There is something most remarkable about so many members of an institution committing heinous acts that they know are not only wrong and against the rules of an institution, but are contrary to the laws of God, and could well serve to deliver their souls to eternal torment. Could these people have actually believed in God? Is it the case of parents encouraging their "odd" children to join? Did they deliberately join to find an avenue to abuse, with easy access and the "shield" of respectability that membership of such an institution gave them? It's all so strange.

Two factors exacerbated the abuse crisis: "legitimate" church authorities (i.e. not pedophiles themselves) seem to have decided that pedophilia was an illness more than a normal crime, and decided that sending offenders to therapy to be "cured" was the solution, and that these "ill" people could be rehabilitated. And that it was best for all concerned to keep this quiet, both for the "ill" perpetrator and for the victim. This approach, evil as it was, was not totally out of keeping with mainstream psychology at the time, and it offered a neat solution for the authorities to "get rid" of such a horrible issue off of their desks - many levels of church authority just did not want to know and just passed the issue on. This is not a unique phenomenon - I'm sure many of us have forwarded on an email and washed our hands of it, glad that it had "nothing to do" with us and was above our paygrades. Another example of this institutional paralysis was evident over the cervical check scandal where there was much back and forth about who should tell the patients about their smear checks.

Everyone would have been better served if the Church went medieval style and dished out punishment.

In terms of institutions in general, there have been changes in attitude, with much emphasis on risk and the adoption of a general attitude that "its better we discover our misdeeds than someone else does" with most institutions having vigorous internal audit and compliance functions.

The second factor is that abusers also came to occupy positions of authority - and carried out and facilitated abuse.

The most educated in society,didn't know child abuse was wrong,don't buy it for a second and fact so many repeatedly abused and were moved about,noone makes same mistake over and over,at some stage it's a conscious decision



It was so prevelant that there's no way,that other ordinary priests weren't aware of it,(this is what put my still reasonably religious parents off the church,they'd been long skeptical of church rules anyway),.....just them 'good' priests placed protecting the church above the lives/safety of children,on likely presumption they'd never face public/criminal investigation for it due to status church held....

Not an attack on church as such,you'll get same in any institutions,gaurds and top down attacks on Maurice maccabe,being another example of an untouchable institution in Irish society,that works to defend itself,

[Memento Mori]

The most educated in society,didn't know child abuse was wrong,don't buy it for a second and fact so many repeatedly abused and were moved about,noone makes same mistake over and over,at some stage it's a conscious decision



It was so prevelant that there's no way,that other ordinary priests weren't aware of it,(this is what put my still reasonably religious parents off the church,they'd been long skeptical of church rules anyway),.....just them 'good' priests placed protecting the church above the lives/safety of children,on likely presumption they'd never face public/criminal investigation for it due to status church held....

Not an attack on church as such,you'll get same in any institutions,gaurds and top down attacks on Maurice maccabe,being another example of an untouchable institution in Irish society,that works to defend itself,

I'm saying that they did know it was wrong... I'm questioning if they (the perpetrators) believed in God.

If someone in an organization becomes directly aware of wrongdoing (i.e. not just rumors) and alerts a superior and leaves it at that, are they to be irredeemably condemned?

But I think you are right, its an institutional (and indeed human) phenomenon...

[PogMoThoin22]

Wow, are we really trying to downplay the seriousness of the whole abuse scandal as a misjudgement by authorities and compare it to the cervical check scandal as something that simply could have been handled better.

[Setanta]

I'm saying that they did know it was wrong... I'm questioning if they (the perpetrators) believed in God.

If someone in an organization becomes directly aware of wrongdoing (i.e. not just rumors) and alerts a superior and leaves it at that, are they to be irredeemably condemned?

But I think you are right, its an institutional (and indeed human) phenomenon...

They can believe in God,some awlful things are done in name of God......as the native American guys say, Christianity is the dominant religion,not by quality of its message,but by quantity of its violence (though I guess same could be said for Islam too?).....the motto of the uvf is 'for god & ulster'



It's an interesting qs as being irredeemably condemned,and completely beyond me in terms of answering for everyone,but if was one of my own harmed by their inaction/blind eye,I couldn't forgive/forget anyway

[Jack The Stripper]

The same thing that happened in institution’s is happening today in the likes of the city west. Celibacy 2.0. Slava Ukraine

[Setanta]

Wow, are we really trying to downplay the seriousness of the whole abuse scandal as a misjudgement by authorities and compare it to the cervical check scandal as something that simply could have been handled better.

I thinks it's a wider problem going back generations,just the church was largest organisation embroiled the deepest,most long term institutions have become entangled at some regard


My great-grandfather died in an fishing accident,with 3 kids under age of 3,his wife refused to allow kids be taken into poor-house because of how widely known abuse of kids was in them (and she worked several jobs to keep em going),but noone from the poor-house survived......the church is clearly wrong,and I'm desperately trying not to downplay,but it was a broader society issue,the world was hardly all sunshine and lolipops back in older times, paedophiles have been around since dawn of time,(have several relatives who sucided/lived as hobos in America from the trauma of it) ,just peadoes aren't as free to operate anymore,and we now have child protection services,which aren't perfect,but are a beginning.....I know I'm a mile off topic now

[JayZeus]

He did nothing about a pedophile transferred to his own diocese when he had a chance as archbishop of Munich.

"The meeting Benedict attended discussed Peter Hullermann, a now notorious paedophile priest who had been transferred to Munich from Essen, where he was accused of abusing an 11-year-old boy. At the meeting, during which Benedict was quoted in the minutes, it was decided that Hullermann would be admitted to the diocese despite his known history.

Hullermann went on to be reassigned and sexually abuse more children, before being convicted in 1986 of paedophilia and distributing pornography. He was given an 18-month suspended prison sentence. Hullermann was reassigned again in 1987 to Garching an der Alz, where for the next 20 years he worked regularly with children as curate and parish administrator."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... se-inquiry

The rat didn't act. And that's when he was merely an archbishop. Just imagine what else was allowed to slide while he occupied increasingly powerful positions in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

Good riddance. He faced no punishment during his time on earth. If anything does exist as an afterlife, I hope he answers for the harm caused to countless children when he SHOULD and COULD have acted to protect them.

[Memento Mori]

Wow, are we really trying to downplay the seriousness of the whole abuse scandal as a misjudgement by authorities and compare it to the cervical check scandal as something that simply could have been handled better.

No. You are being deliberately disingenuous and misrepresenting what I have said. A nuanced discussion is not beyond your ability to either understand or take part in.

In that same post, I described this activity as being "evil", and stated that "medieval-style" punishment would have been preferable. Rather strongly put, I thought...

That said, it is important to understand how this happened, so it does not happen again, or elsewhere. Institutional problems like these always involve some good people either turning a blind eye, avoiding, or sometimes actively doing evil things. If this is not examined, a retreat to "they were just terrible people" is inevitable, with the inverse implication that "it would not happen with good people/good organisations" taking hold - an attitude that played a major role in the abuse in the first place.

[Memento Mori]

Benedict's letter following the accusation previously written of (although he denied active wrongdoing).

there must necessarily also follow a confession. I am increasingly struck by the fact that day after day the Church begins the celebration of Holy Mass – in which the Lord gives us his word and his very self – with the confession of our sins and a petition for forgiveness. We publicly implore the living God to forgive [the sins we have committed through] our fault, through our most grievous fault. It is clear to me that the words “most grievous” do not apply each day and to every person in the same way. Yet every day they do cause me to question if today too I should speak of a most grievous fault. And they tell me with consolation that however great my fault may be today, the Lord forgives me, if I sincerely allow myself to be examined by him, and am really prepared to change.

In all my meetings, especially during my many Apostolic Journeys, with victims of sexual abuse by priests, I have seen at first hand the effects of a most grievous fault. And I have come to understand that we ourselves are drawn into this grievous fault whenever we neglect it or fail to confront it with the necessary decisiveness and responsibility, as too often happened and continues to happen. As in those meetings, once again I can only express to all the victims of sexual abuse my profound shame, my deep sorrow and my heartfelt request for forgiveness. I have had great responsibilities in the Catholic Church. All the greater is my pain for the abuses and the errors that occurred in those different places during the time of my mandate. Each individual case of sexual abuse is appalling and irreparable. The victims of sexual abuse have my deepest sympathy and I feel great sorrow for each individual case.

I have come increasingly to appreciate the repugnance and fear that Christ felt on the Mount of Olives when he saw all the dreadful things that he would have to endure inwardly. Sadly, the fact that in those moments the disciples were asleep represents a situation that, today too, continues to take place, and for which I too feel called to answer. And so, I can only pray to the Lord and ask all the angels and saints, and you, dear brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

Quite soon, I shall find myself before the final judge of my life. Even though, as I look back on my long life, I can have great reason for fear and trembling, I am nonetheless of good cheer, for I trust firmly that the Lord is not only the just judge, but also the friend and brother who himself has already suffered for my shortcomings, and is thus also my advocate, my “Paraclete”. In light of the hour of judgement, the grace of being a Christian becomes all the more clear to me. It grants me knowledge, and indeed friendship, with the judge of my life, and thus allows me to pass confidently through the dark door of death. In this regard, I am constantly reminded of what John tells us at the beginning of the Apocalypse: he sees the Son of Man in all his grandeur and falls at his feet as though dead. Yet He, placing his right hand on him, says to him: “Do not be afraid! It is I…” (cf. Rev 1:12-17).