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Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

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Del.Monte
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Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#1

Post by Del.Monte »

The latest fad sweeping the Western World for returning items to their countries of origin is being hyped in the Irish media with demands for the return of the "The Mount Keeffe Chalice". https://www.independent.ie/regionals/co ... 97418.html

The Cork Chalice as it also known was sold for £400 to the Victoria and Albert Museum in 1929 and is still held in the London institution. Why the V&A should consider returning this to Ireland is beyond me except to appease the BLM/Erase History/Tear Down Statues/Woke movement. I suspect that many of those calling for the return of the chalice had never heard of it until the media alighted upon it as the next hot topic.

Ireland is already chock-full of museum pieces that are stored/dumped all over the country but I suppose the chalice could be thrown in with them. :roll:

Well known culture vulture, Andrea Gilligan (Newstalk), has an item about the chalice on now.

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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#2

Post by Mirabeau »

Who sold it to the V&A museum?
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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#3

Post by Del.Monte »

Mirabeau wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:51 pm Who sold it to the V&A museum?
A private individual.
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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#4

Post by Mirabeau »

Del.Monte wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:55 pm A private individual.
Anymore info on this?
That link is paywalled.
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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#5

Post by Del.Monte »

Mirabeau wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:59 pm Anymore info on this?
That link is paywalled.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/muns ... 54264.html

Important Irish artefacts held in libraries and museums in the UK should be returned, a TD has said.
Labour’s Seán Sherlock says the Government needs to open a dialogue with the British and get the items back.

Mr Sherlock’s call for a national dialogue about their return came in response to an article in the Irish Examiner about one of Ireland’s oldest religious artefacts turning up in an English museum.

Officials at the Victoria & Albert Museum bought the Mount Keefe Chalice from an heiress of a large country estate in Cork for £400 in 1929.

It is understood to have been stolen by English soldiers hundreds of years ago.

The heiress’s family believe it was most likely bought by a relative in 1915 at an auction of items in a collection owned by the famous Cork antiquarian Robert Day.

But nobody knows where Mr Day, whose controversial involvement in the discovery of gold ornaments in Cork in 1896 led to him being investigated by the Royal Irish Constabulary, got the chalice.

He may have purchased it in the 1880s, after the death of its then-owner.

The chalice, which dates back to 1590, is just one of thousands of artefacts taken to the UK.

They also include the Annals of Inisfallen, which are just one of a number of ancient Irish manuscripts in Oxford University's Bodleian Library.

The Irish Examiner has learned there are at least 31 manuscripts for which the place of origin is listed as Ireland.

Asked recently if it was interested in the return of the chalice and other artefacts to Ireland, a National Museum spokesperson said there is currently “no open correspondence from the National Museum of Ireland to international museums seeking the return of objects on a permanent basis to Ireland’s national collection”.

Mr Sherlock said: “The response by the National Museum on the question of whether it is interested in the return of the Mount Keefe Chalice suggests to me a ‘let sleeping dogs lie’ attitude to repatriation of artefacts and antiquities that should be part of our national inventory.

“I believe strongly that now is the time to begin a ministerial bilateral dialogue with the United Kingdom on the return of the Mount Keefe Chalice and every other artefact, such as, for example, the Annals of Inisfallen, that are housed in British institutions.

“They are not the United Kingdom’s to keep. They should be returned.”

A V&A spokesperson said: "Our archives don’t include any information that suggests concerns that the Mount Keefe Chalice might once have been stolen, or that links it with a potential British military raid in Co Cork.

“We would welcome the opportunity to explore any new information that comes to light about V&A collections.

“The chalice is available for loan to museums in Ireland, which could support further study.”

The Mount Keefe Chalice is believed to have been used by the priests when they celebrated Mass in around the 1690s, during the Penal Laws that outlawed Catholic Masses.

It vanished after they were both murdered on a farm near the north Co Cork town of Newmarket.

A 30ft sycamore tree, known as The Chalice Tree, now stands at or near the spot where the priests were murdered, and buried.

Local folklore sometimes suggests the priests had hurriedly buried the chalice in a hole before they were murdered, and the Chalice Tree grew up out of that hole.

However, this is unlikely, as the tree has since been dated and is between 150 and 200 years old, but no older.
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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#6

Post by Mirabeau »

Interesting.
The Labour (lol) TD brought it up and the V&A Museum see open to dialogue. That's a good start.
Some pleb on newstalk getting bolshy is unhelpful.
However, I think pushing the faux-concern charge onto the whole of Ireland is a bit much.
Let's be honest here, the British Empire was a robbing scumbag of a setup.
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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

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Post by Del.Monte »

Mirabeau wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:52 pm Interesting.
The Labour (lol) TD brought it up and the V&A Museum see open to dialogue. That's a good start.
Some pleb on newstalk getting bolshy is unhelpful.
However, I think pushing the faux-concern charge onto the whole of Ireland is a bit much.
Let's be honest here, the British Empire was a robbing scumbag of a setup.
Every empire that ever existed was at the same thing but you can't go farting about trying to rewrite history. The British museums are amongst the best in the world - by a country mile. The Republic of Ireland doesn't doesn't really do heritage unless it's the GAA or the plethora of interpretive centres with their audio visual displays and talking heads. The worthwhile museums here such as the National Gallery, the Natural History Museum and the National Museum, the National Library etc.etc are a legacy of Empire.

Even with Britain we have seen examples of this nonsense with the return of the Stone of Destiny from England to Edinburgh in 1996. The stone which was seized by Edward I in 1296 was returned in 1996 for no other reason than early example of wokeness by John Major's government.
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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#8

Post by kadman »

WE would need more room than is needed by Ukranian refugees to house the thousands of objects stolen by the british empire when they occupied Ireland.
We lost many, many works of Irish craftsmen to them. The irish museums cant look after the 1000's they have in storage. Some artifacts being stored in museum employees homes and garages, let alone adding to this
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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#9

Post by Del.Monte »

kadman wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:47 pm WE would need more room than is needed by Ukranian refugees to house the thousands of objects stolen by the british empire when they occupied Ireland.
We lost many, many works of Irish craftsmen to them. The irish museums cant look after the 1000's they have in storage. Some artifacts being stored in museum employees homes and garages, let alone adding to this
We're just looking after them for posterity and they are resting in our museums like the money in Father Ted's account. :mrgreen:
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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#10

Post by 95438756 »

Del.Monte wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:40 pm The latest fad sweeping the Western World for returning items to their countries of origin is being hyped in the Irish media with demands for the return of the "The Mount Keeffe Chalice". https://www.independent.ie/regionals/co ... 97418.html

The Cork Chalice as it also known was sold for £400 to the Victoria and Albert Museum in 1929 and is still held in the London institution. Why the V&A should consider returning this to Ireland is beyond me except to appease the BLM/Erase History/Tear Down Statues/Woke movement. I suspect that many of those calling for the return of the chalice had never heard of it until the media alighted upon it as the next hot topic.

Ireland is already chock-full of museum pieces that are stored/dumped all over the country but I suppose the chalice could be thrown in with them. :roll:

Well known culture vulture, Andrea Gilligan (Newstalk), has an item about the chalice on now.

Image
So, Ireland is doing the same as Greece did demanding the return of material taken by Lord Elgin.

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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#11

Post by KHD »

Reminds me I must get out abit more with the metal detector this year in my search for scrap metal. :mrgreen:
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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#12

Post by Setanta »

I'd rather,if they gave back the 6 counties first :lol:


It is going to be an issue,what exactly to do with the ill-gotten goods from their empire (similar problems for other European colonial states too).....

we wouldn't say Germany should hold onto stuff taken by Nazis,why should simple passage of time make it ok for other European countries :?:




That being said,I once was in the presence of accordion being played,that were taken from an lorry,after the burgery ambush on the black and tans outside dungarvan..... interesting can of worms 8-)
Last edited by Setanta on Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#13

Post by kadman »

Del.Monte wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 7:57 pm We're just looking after them for posterity and they are resting in our museums like the money in Father Ted's account. :mrgreen:
He,he. Problem is we are not looking after them, they are fecked into an old damp basement owned by the National Monuments Custodians along with the other 2500 items.
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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#14

Post by Del.Monte »

Setanta wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:11 pm I'd rather,if they gave back the 6 counties first :lol:


It is going to be an issue,what exactly to do with the ill-gotten goods from their empire (similar problems for other European colonial states too).....

we wouldn't say Germany should hold onto stuff taken by Nazis,why should simple passage of time make it ok for other European countries :?:


That being said,I once was in the presence of accordion being played,that were taken from an lorry,after the burgery ambush on the black and tans outside dungarvan..... interesting can of worms 8-)
I'd like to thank your post but the reference to the 6 counties make it impossible.. :mrgreen:

Your point about the Nazis is meh... but that is very recent history and how far do you go back and when do you stop. It's the same as all the compensation claims for perceived damage done by colonial powers. Britain was repeatedly invaded and looted in the past and should the British government start looking for compensation for the damage done to the country by the Romans, the Danes and the Normans? Anyway, I am veering off from the main story and that is that British museums have a track record a mile long of proper conservation of artifacts - regardless of how they came by them - whereas Ireland in common with countries like Greece have a poor record. The Elgin marbles would have been damaged by air pollution if they had been left in situ https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. ... 9.10470796
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Re: Ireland's faux concern for Heritage

#15

Post by Setanta »

Del.Monte wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:24 pm I'd like to thank your post but the reference to the 6 counties make it impossible.. :mrgreen:

Your point about the Nazis is meh... but that is very recent history and how far do you go back and when do you stop. It's the same as all the compensation claims for perceived damage done by colonial powers. Britain was repeatedly invaded and looted in the past and should the British government start looking for compensation for the damage done to the country by the Romans, the Danes and the Normans? Anyway, I am veering off from the main story and that is that British museums have a track record a mile long of proper conservation of artifacts - regardless of how they came by them - whereas Ireland in common with countries like Greece have a poor record. The Elgin marbles would have been damaged by air pollution if they had been left in situ https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. ... 9.10470796
That's the point though....you can't say Nazi gold/looted plunder was bad/wrong,while saying it's ok for Britain to hold these artifact's


It's entirely hypocritical,but a very difficult one to sort,and only reasonable resolution is a case by case basis alongside diplomatic pressure.....

like you couldn't argue,the flag taken by English at 1916,and returned for the 50th anniversary,shouldn't belong in national museum here.....a seminal event in Irish history,while the Easter rising is but a footnote in British history


As regards preservation,should the yanks have taken the massive Buddhist statues from Afghanistan,that the Taliban went on to destroy (curiously they preserve em now to appease chinese)....there's no right or wrong,but if it become a important cause for the country of origin,I think it's wrong to hold onto em
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