Abortion Bill - Brid Smith

[isha]

Does anyone know what timescale is meant to come into place by the approval by a majority of Irish TDs yesterday of Brid Smith's Pro Choice Bill to remove the 12 week limit?

I understand the bit where the argument was made to remove the three day waiting period.

I just can't find anything that is clear about the 12 week limit. I see some tweets saying it means permitting elective abortion up to 6 months, and I see others say up to birth, if the mother chooses.

I really don't think that is true, and that is exaggeration. Maybe somebody here knows the wording?


I know it doesn't have status as an Act and will likely be defeated eventually. But I'm mostly wondering did People Before Profit and the majority politician supporters of the Bill in the Dail have as a timescale in mind?

What timescale do you agree with? Or just removal of the 12 week limit and not specify? Should there be a specific time legislated for? Do you think yes or no?

[nlgbbbblth]

Taryn is happy although she can't say the word "women"
Total narcissist.



I think a lot of people voted yes in 2018 on the basis of the restrictions being unchanged so I can see why they're bothered by the proposed amendments.

Abortions should be safe, legal & rare. But never free.

[isha]

I have since come across a suggestion that the 12 week issue is about facilitating where there hasn't been a proper scan for defects or if someone finds out very late eg on the cusp of 12 weeks that they are pregnant. Obviously still just someone's opinion but clarifying potentially. I'm presuming there would be some time scale put on it. I do think there are nuances in the general public opinion when it comes to trimesters and the first trimester is a place that many can work with, whereas the second moves to a different place in some people's minds. That's what I sometimes hear from people anyway.

[Fugue]

How could anyone who thinks themselves kind and compassionate (so much so that they won't use the word "women" to describe those who become pregnant) be so delighted about abortion of a sentient foetus potentially made available? If it's a necessary final resort, ok, but it's really serious, not something to be happy and jolly about.

She is some melt.

[Diamonds of Frost]

The 3 day wait causes unnecessary stress to women seeking an abortion particularly when appointments can be hard to come by and time is ticking away. The experience is awful and the further down the pregnancy track you are the more horrendous that experience will be.

The 12 week limit I'm not sure about. I want women to have a choice when it comes to their bodies. I find an abortion without a time limit to be disturbing. The two positions don't match.

[Diamonds of Frost]

Pregnant people. Sweet Jesus make it stop!!

[isha]

I have altered my position somewhat on abortion over time. I was (still am!) so mad about my babies from conception that I really didn't like the idea of people aborting pregnancies. Of course it existing didn't mean I had to do it! But I still hated (and hate) the "shout your abortion" attitude. It's a sober choice. And I know a couple of young women who willingly and gratefully made the choice but who have been very upset mentally about it since - not because of stigma, but because abortion can be hard on women on many levels. There's research about that. It is a complicated choice.

But gradually I came to feel and accept that women have known how to halt a pregnancy early since forever, with use of herbal emmenagogues. And that infanticide and exposure has been part of the human story since the beginning because people can't cope with unwanted children. So lack of options leads to more cruelty and always has. I always felt for rape and minors that medication should be available to make sure that the girls/women didn't have to go through more trauma. Of course because of being frightened and uneducated some victims of abuse wouldn't know till quite late that they were pregnant, so one is faced quite quickly with the reality that early emmenagogues are sometimes insufficient. Again, complicated.

I do think there's a worrying lack of knowledge about our own bodies in general and some carelessness because of ignorance. We should fix that.

No timescale limits is something that appals me. It just conjures up terrible things. But on the other hand when I read yesterday about women who might be suddenly up against the 12 weeks limit through no fault of their own, or when scans results might have come in late, I could understand the need for a more porous border in rare instances. Things are rarely simple.

I feel, however, that extension from the first trimester would not only result in rare difficult instances of second or even third trimester abortions eventually. It would gradually become normalised to abort later. That is what has happened elsewhere, though I understand percentages are low for late term abortions. These I feel are a qualitatively different matter in that the early abortions involve medicines that expel an undeveloped foetus, or make the womb an inhospitable environment for embedding, whereas later on what happens is , to be frank, brutal (in my opinion of course, I'm not trying to force others).

[PogMoThoin22]

Pregnant people. Sweet Jesus make it stop!!

FFS

[Del.Monte]

That sketch was so far ahead of its time it's frightening.

[schmittel]

It's not often I'd accuse Stephen Donnelly of talking sense, but I agree with him on this:

When asked why he had abstained from the vote, Mr Donnelly told Newstalk Breakfast on Friday that the Bill did not respect the vote of the people in the referendum on removing the Eighth Amendment in May 2018.

“I actually looked at the Bill in great detail. The Bill goes miles beyond what people voted for in repealing the Eighth. I made this point to Deputy Smith and to others who were supporting the Bill during the second stage debate.

“I campaigned very hard for Repeal, but the Bill does not respect that vote at all because it goes way beyond that vote.”

That said, if he had any spine he'd have voted against the Bill rather than abstaining.

It's also amusing that he appears to think he deserves great credit because he "actually looked at the Bill in great detail".

FFS, he's the Minister for Health as well a TD elected to vote on legislation. What the feck does he think we expect him to do with Bills he is voting on?! Ask ChatGPT for a synopsis?

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/oir ... voted-for/

[isha]

Interesting. Yes, I thought it went way beyond what was voted in. It will be interesting in the near future for me to have some chats with close friends who had/have different opinions than mine at the time of the referendum. Because most of them seemed to be voting for the rare, hard cases ( and I can see their points of view). I'm curious, but perhaps most people have moved on to wanting broader terms, like obviously the majority of our TDs.

[Diamonds of Frost]

It's a complicated business and a painful decision to make. If there was no 12 week limit here when we voted then I'd still vote to repeal. That's because of all of the women who are earlier on and need the choice. Anecdotally I can say that for many the sooner it can be done the better. As the weeks go by their decision becomes more difficult because it's no longer as easy to get their heads around and say "it's just a bunch of cells".

What I do not agree with is the minimising of having an abortion be it 4 weeks or 14. I think the small cells, the developing foetus should be in some way honoured and one way to do this is by accepting and understanding that what you have decided to do isn't a thing of nothing.

That's a very difficult thing to do because for a lot women they need to detach. There is a middle ground I believe where what you went through can be acknowledged and you feel able to speak about the experience. I find strange when I hear "it's no big deal". I understand it but ultimately it's a loss even when it's the right choice.

[DeletedUser]

There should be a 12 week limit for “non medical” abortions, those who just don’t want to be pregnant.

For conditions that can be diagnosed before 18 weeks (the time when a foetus has the capacity to register awareness/consciousness) - fine, allowable.

For conditions that can’t be diagnosed until after 18 weeks that would result in death at or just after birth, or very serious life limiting disabilities then again, allow.

Just my 2c - I voted yes to repeal of course.

[isha]

I saw this study that has been published this month about abortion since Repeal in Ireland. It is the interviews of 13 providers, from different places in Ireland, different age groups, in a twelve month period from mid 2020 to mid 2021.

The whole report is there, the abstract is in different languages, but then you can scroll down to read it all, if interested.

Basically all continue to believe in the service they provide. There are some interesting observations about moral doubts that arise in some interviewees because of handling foetal remains, often several times a week. I think the research should be done on far more than 13 providers. It seems a very small number. It's an interesting report, fairly frank and transparent.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 23.2216526