Israel and Palestine

[jmayo]

Very worrying for people like me that believe the BBC reporting of events and expect them to maintain the highest standards.

The BBC, the paedophiles employer of choice, you mean.

[Del.Monte]

The BBC, the paedophiles employer of choice, you mean.

That's a kind of daft generalisation ....RTE's record is not exactly squeaky clean but that's no reason to tar the whole organisation.

[isha]

If any legacy media outlet told me the sky is blue, I'd go out to check. There's not one of them I can stomach listening to. For many years now, but covid put the lid on it for me. The incitement to hatred was obscene.

[jmayo]

That's a kind of daft generalisation ....RTE's record is not exactly squeaky clean but that's no reason to tar the whole organisation.

Why do people assume you mean every last person in the organisation.
But the top has always been a bit iffy.
Just look at the schenanagains with regard to political appointees trying to steer the organisation to do bidding of government.
And it has been even worse with regards to our own RTE.

[marhay70]

Why do people assume you mean every last person in the organisation.
But the top has always been a bit iffy.
Just look at the schenanagains with regard to political appointees trying to steer the organisation to do bidding of government.
And it has been even worse with regards to our own RTE.

The BBC, like RTE, gets the majority of its funding from Government and like RTE is very open to manipulation by Government. Again, like RTE, powerful people within the organisation are untouchable unless sold out by erstwhile friends and colleagues. At least the UK has something in the way of investigative journalism.

[Beatty]

> Roni Kriboy was kidnapped from the party in Kibbutz Re'im, where he worked. During his captivity after an IDF attack in the area of ​​the building where he was being held, he managed to heroically escape for 4 days from Hamas, hiding and trying to reach the border with Israel until residents of Gaza captured him and handed him over to Hamas... yes those residents of Gaza, the “poor and innocent" who could have handed him over to Israel, they chose to give him back to the terrorists.

https://x.com/YosephHaddad/status/17290 ... 09349?s=20

[PureIsle]

Some video clips being shared of the released Israeli prisoners being thankful to the Hamas personnel for their kindness and respect. Apparently they were kept in groups and even had radio in at least one situation. Medicines were supplied as well as food ... although both are very scarce in Gaza and they all lost some weight.
Even some Israeli TV is recounting this..
So the claims that the previously released old lady who said very similar things but under duress because her husband was still a prisoner can now be discounted (in case there was much doubt).

All the above is in stark contrast to the mistreatment recounted by Palestinians released by Israel.

[jmayo]

Some video clips being shared of the released Israeli prisoners being thankful to the Hamas personnel for their kindness and respect. Apparently they were kept in groups and even had radio in at least one situation. Medicines were supplied as well as food ... although both are very scarce in Gaza and they all lost some weight.
Even some Israeli TV is recounting this..
So the claims that the previously released old lady who said very similar things but under duress because her husband was still a prisoner can now be discounted (in case there was much doubt).

All the above is in stark contrast to the mistreatment recounted by Palestinians released by Israel.

I suppose they are going to go back on holiday you will be telling us next.

Why not just change your picture to the hamas flag at this stage and be done with it.

[isha]

Some video clips being shared of the released Israeli prisoners being thankful to the Hamas personnel for their kindness and respect. Apparently they were kept in groups and even had radio in at least one situation. Medicines were supplied as well as food ... although both are very scarce in Gaza and they all lost some weight.
Even some Israeli TV is recounting this..
So the claims that the previously released old lady who said very similar things but under duress because her husband was still a prisoner can now be discounted (in case there was much doubt).

All the above is in stark contrast to the mistreatment recounted by Palestinians released by Israel.

This is...I don't know.
Many released people have relatives still held hostage. The hostages could not use the toilet when needed. Some have lost over 20 kgs. They had rice mostly to eat. I saw Emily Hand after her release in a video, she looked profoundly traumatised. The hostages thought they might die while being released as things were thrown at them.

I simply will not believe or engage with any misty eyed visions of the hostage takers treatment of civilians. No.

[isha]

Losing 20 kgs in 50 days which is what one hostage lost is a pound per day.

[PureIsle]

This is...I don't know.
Many released people have relatives still held hostage. The hostages could not use the toilet when needed. Some have lost over 20 kgs. They had rice mostly to eat. I saw Emily Hand after her release in a video, she looked profoundly traumatised. The hostages thought they might die while being released as things were thrown at them.

I simply will not believe or engage with any misty eyed visions of the hostage takers treatment of civilians. No.

I dunno where you get the misty-eyed vision from ...... I just recounted what Israeli TV and video interviews showed.
There was no actual weight given for losses so I cannot confirm your 20Kgs for some.
Regarding toilet facilities, would you care to compare the facilities of those released by Israel with the lack of facilities for the hostages?
Yes they ate mostly rice ..... and who is responsible for the lack of food, water and medicine in the Gaza strip? - it is not Hamas. They ate what their captors ate.

There is a stark contrast between the hostages' (held by Hamas) words and those of the released prisoners from Israeli jails.
Denying that, is to question those who experienced the trauma, which I find unacceptable.

Those people lived through those horrors, we did not and are not in a position to question their words.

[Diamonds of Frost]

Some video clips being shared of the released Israeli prisoners being thankful to the Hamas personnel for their kindness and respect. Apparently they were kept in groups and even had radio in at least one situation. Medicines were supplied as well as food ... although both are very scarce in Gaza and they all lost some weight.
Even some Israeli TV is recounting this..
So the claims that the previously released old lady who said very similar things but under duress because her husband was still a prisoner can now be discounted (in case there was much doubt).

All the above is in stark contrast to the mistreatment recounted by Palestinians released by Israel.

I have been wondering about this. I saw some photos of hostages smiling and highfiving a Hamas member actually I think it was a little boy. Another photo showed two women carrying little girls and a Hamas had his hand on one of the women's shoulders as if he was comforting the child.

These are men who tortured and murdered regardless if gender or age. They destroyed families and communities. Is it a case that, well obviously they are not of a hive mind, but it's really strange to me.

[PureIsle]

I have been wondering about this. I saw some photos of hostages smiling and highfiving a Hamas member actually I think it was a little boy. Another photo showed two women carrying little girls and a Hamas had his hand on one of the women's shoulders as if he was comforting the child.

These are men who tortured and murdered regardless if gender or age. They destroyed families and communities. Is it a case that, well obviously they are not of a hive mind, but it's really strange to me.

I have my own - unsubstantiated - suspicions around the murder of innocent civilians on the 7th. Why did some go on a rampage?

I also find it difficult to equate the reported behaviour of Hamas members regarding their captives and the indiscriminate murders of the 7th. Something does not sit right. Did Hamas lose control of some of their fighters on the 7th? Did they all behave like that on the 7th and then change to 'good' ones when back in base?
I doubt we will ever know.

[JayZeus]

I have my own - unsubstantiated - suspicions around the murder of innocent civilians on the 7th. Why did some go on a rampage?

I also find it difficult to equate the reported behaviour of Hamas members regarding their captives and the indiscriminate murders of the 7th. Something does not sit right. Did Hamas lose control of some of their fighters on the 7th? Did they all behave like that on the 7th and then change to 'good' ones when back in base?
I doubt we will ever know.

What?

Why did ‘some’ go on a rampage?

Did Hamas lose control etc

Really? No, really?

[isha]

Hamas declared two men spies without trial, publicly shot them by firing squad, strung them up from an electricity pylon and then dismembered their bodies before putting them into a skip only a few days ago in the West Bank. Meanwhile a huge crowd looked on in the public square, participated in abusing the bodies and filmed with approval...so yeah, it's really puzzling how some of them good boys went rogue.

[marhay70]

Reports on BBC six o'clock news disagree with the suggestion that there was a happy relationship between hostages and captives and certainly nothing like what the terrorists' apologists would have us believe.
Hamas is part of the evil circle of Al Qaeda, Isis, and Iran, none of whom have ever needed any excuse to carry out murder and mayhem and all of whom have taken hostages when it suited their agenda. It's in their interest to give reasonable care to their captives, imagine the reaction in Israel if hostages were returned in poor condition. Hamas is currently having prisoners released at a rate of three to one for Israeli hostages, which means a minimum of 750 prisoners will be released if this continues. That's a lot of people to parade with emaciated bodies as a result of ill treatment, so it'll be interesting to see their condition. I expect we'll hear all sorts of stories of torture etc, nothing like a bit of drama to further the propaganda cause.

[Diamonds of Frost]

Something is very odd. I will see if I can post a video. Hamas members talking with Red Cross workers and all looks very calm. Helping hostages in to the vans l, waves and smiles.

I would find it very difficult to even stand beside a member of a monstrous group of people let alone speak. If I needed to then it would be quick and my expression would show my disgust.

[isha]

We are starting to learn about the impact of Hamas captivity on the children and it's utterly heartbreaking.

Thomas Hand, father of 9-year-old Emily, says the little girl thought she had been held hostage for a year and now cries herself to sleep.

“The most shocking, disturbing part of meeting her was she was just whispering, you couldn’t hear her. I had to put my ear on her lips. She’d been conditioned not to make any noise.”

“Last night she cried until her face was red and blotchy, she couldn’t stop. She didn’t want any comfort, I guess she’s forgotten how to be comforted. She went under the covers of the bed, the quilt, covered herself up and quietly cried.”

[Diamonds of Frost]

I have my own - unsubstantiated - suspicions around the murder of innocent civilians on the 7th. Why did some go on a rampage?

I also find it difficult to equate the reported behaviour of Hamas members regarding their captives and the indiscriminate murders of the 7th. Something does not sit right. Did Hamas lose control of some of their fighters on the 7th? Did they all behave like that on the 7th and then change to 'good' ones when back in base?
I doubt we will ever know.

I think they are somewhat different.
My understanding of the atrocities of the 7th is that Hamas leadership gave the go ahead for the attack and for the terrorists to do what they liked. They chose the faction to carry it out.
It is as simple as I first thought - each member of Hamas are unique from the other.

I look upon such groups as being one horrible terrifying entity but that isn't the case. No matter the level of indoctrination there is still temperament and emotions. The pictures of kids smiling and waving goodbye is because they experienced a less monstrous soldier. One who doesn't believe that murdering a child is in any way helpful to their "cause". Maybe they don't even hate the Israeli civilian.

Perhaps the leadership chose particular members to be responsible for the hostages in the same way as they chose who to carry out the October attacks.

[jmayo]

What?

Why did ‘some’ go on a rampage?

Did Hamas lose control etc

Really? No, really?

I just realised how useful the "foe" setting is, you don't have read the apologist shyte pedaled by some posters.

At this stage I half expect a link to a gofundme page for hamas.

[PureIsle]

I think they are somewhat different.
My understanding of the atrocities of the 7th is that Hamas leadership gave the go ahead for the attack and for the terrorists to do what they liked. They chose the faction to carry it out.
It is as simple as I first thought - each member of Hamas are unique from the other.

I look upon such groups as being one horrible terrifying entity but that isn't the case. No matter the level of indoctrination there is still temperament and emotions. The pictures of kids smiling and waving goodbye is because they experienced a less monstrous soldier. One who doesn't believe that murdering a child is in any way helpful to their "cause". Maybe they don't even hate the Israeli civilian.

Perhaps the leadership chose particular members to be responsible for the hostages in the same way as they chose who to carry out the October attacks.

You might very well be correct, as I read that the head of Hamas might have visited the hostages. If that is true then no doubt the treatment of the hostages was & is tightly controlled.
That could be one/the explanation for the different behaviour the hostages experienced while being held.
It is a solid theory, but difficult to be certain as I am sure there are other theories that could fit the circumstances also.

[Diamonds of Frost]

You might very well be correct, as I read that the head of Hamas might have visited the hostages. If that is true then no doubt the treatment of the hostages was & is tightly controlled.
That could be one/the explanation for the different behaviour the hostages experienced while being held.
It is a solid theory, but difficult to be certain as I am sure there are other theories that could fit the circumstances also.

I'm interested in the psychology of those who commit unthinkable crimes and also in the dynamic that exists between hostage and hostage taker. So I'm looking at this in a way that doesn't take a side (Israel/Palestine) but I do believe Hamas need to be destroyed. The people of Israel and Palestine have suffered and lost so much.

[JayZeus]

You might very well be correct, as I read that the head of Hamas might have visited the hostages. If that is true then no doubt the treatment of the hostages was & is tightly controlled.
That could be one/the explanation for the different behaviour the hostages experienced while being held.
It is a solid theory, but difficult to be certain as I am sure there are other theories that could fit the circumstances also.

So what you’re saying is that you don’t know.

I mean you really don’t know.

But you’ll continue to speculate.

Because it’s pure speculation, laid upon the misery of hostages, families, communities and so on.

Fire away and all, but it’s in poor taste and questionable judgement to continue presenting these speculations in a way that in any way diminishes the evil perpetrated by Hamas on the 7th.

Kind of at a loss to know what else to write.

I imagine that through late 1945 and on into ‘46 and ‘47 there would have been people talking about how not all the Nazis at the concentration camps were as evil as the others. Maybe if there were online fora at that time we’d have people rubbernecking in the same way, armchair experts with no facts, no tangible proof for or against, but making their case for their own satisfaction or grim entertainment. Kind of looks like that to me.

[jmayo]

Jeeze it looks like the BBC journalist in Israel has a different take on how nice hamas were to their captive hostages, who in some Irish terms would be considered lost guests I suppose.

By Paul Adams & Graeme Baker
BBC News, Jerusalem and London

Bare benches for beds in "suffocating", airless rooms. Little to no food. A child captive forced by Hamas to watch the carnage of 7 October on video.

Stories emerging from those freed from Gaza - mostly through their relatives - paint a picture of weeks spent in squalor, uncertainty and fear.

One hostage, Ruti Munder, 78, said she learned her son was killed in Israel by listening to a radio used by guards.

Deborah Cohen claimed her 12-year-old nephew was made to watch videos of the Hamas rampage through southern Israel.

More than 60 of the estimated 240 people taken hostage by Hamas have now been freed under the Israel-Hamas truce deal.

Few have spoken directly about their experiences, but those who have - either themselves or through their families - relay a captivity that has left a host of emotional and physical scars.

In an interview with French television channel BFM, Ms Cohen described the conditions that her nephew Eitan Yahalomi, 12, endured throughout his 52 days as a hostage.

"When he arrived in Gaza, all of the residents, all of them, beat him up. He's a 12-year-old child," she said, adding that any child who cried was "threatened with rifles".

Ms Cohen said that Eitan had told her that "Hamas forced him to watch horror videos" of the 7 October attacks, when at least 1,200 people were killed.

"Yesterday (when Eitan was released) we were so happy," Deborah Cohen told BFMTV, "but now that I know this I worry. It's unimaginable. I don't know who could do such a thing."

"I wanted to believe that Eitan would be well treated. Apparently not. Those people are monsters."

The Times of Israel reported that Eitan's father, Ohad, was shot and wounded in a gun battle and remains in captivity in Gaza.

Other hostages have told relatives of being kept in crowded underground hallways and rooms with little electricity.

They were strictly controlled by their guards - denied pens in case they tried to communicate covertly among themselves.

Ruti Munder, 78, was freed on Friday along with her daughter Keren, 54, and nine-year-old grandson Ohad Munder-Zichri.

She said her captors had forced her group to sleep on benches without mattresses, in a "suffocating" room with little fresh air.

She was fortunate to be given a sheet - many others including young girls and boys were not.

"We covered ourselves with a sheet. The boys slept under the benches, on the ground, because we wanted them next to us," she told Israel's Channel 13.

It also appears that Hamas split families up - with many left in the dark about what had happened to their relatives on 7 October.

In video footage released by Mrs Munder's family, a relative is heard saying that her husband Avraham, also aged 78, was still being held hostage. Keren Munder replies: "So he wasn't murdered."

Mrs Munder then describes how she had learned from listening to the radio in captivity that her son, Roy, had been killed by Hamas in Nir Oz kibbutz.

Food varied. The 78-year-old said she received chicken and rice at first, with tea twice a day.

"We were OK," she said, but added that what they were given soon changed when "the economic situation was not good, and people were hungry".

Another relative, Merav Raviv, described how Mrs Munder and her daughter had each lost around 7kg (15lb).

Others have spoken of a meagre, dwindling diet of canned hummus, pitta bread and salty cheese - towards the end some hostages said they received just two slices of bread a day.

Those involved in looking after freed children say that many are suffering effects of psychological strain.

A resident of Kibbutz Be'eri said two released girls were still speaking in whispers, after weeks of being told to keep their voices down by their captors.

Thomas Hand, the father of nine-year-old Irish-Israeli Emily Hand, who was released on Sunday, said that his daughter now cries herself to sleep at night.

"She's coming out slowly, little by little," he told US media.

"The most shocking, disturbing part of meeting her was that she was just whispering, you couldn't hear her. I had to put my ear on her lips," he said.

"She'd been conditioned not to make any noise."

[PureIsle]

I'm interested in the psychology of those who commit unthinkable crimes and also in the dynamic that exists between hostage and hostage taker. So I'm looking at this in a way that doesn't take a side (Israel/Palestine) but I do believe Hamas need to be destroyed. The people of Israel and Palestine have suffered and lost so much.

Well if looking at the psychology then you are looking at what is behind the attitude and actions of the parties as a means of explanation (not excuse) of the forces that brought on those actions.
Presumably you are looking at both sides of this conflict and how they both take people off the street and incarcerate them, and how they are treated while held.

I would find it interesting to read assessments of both and maybe a comparison also.
I see little value in considering only one side of the coin.
If you care to share I would like to read your thoughts.