Israel and Palestine

[kadman]

It was my expression correct.
If total anihilation of gaza is the only way to get these terrorist thugs, then we need to rethink things.

Us is expert at removing people that they dont want in positions of power, globally. They have done it for decades. Most famous was the phoenix programme in Vietnam, and their technology and resources have increased 10,00 fold since then. Might be time for something similar.
Killing women and children puts us in the same place as what Hamas has already done. We cant do that surely.

[isha]

What percentage of Israelis are Zionists I wonder? I don't know. Is it the older generation?

How does it happen that the Zionists are gotten rid of? What does getting rid of them for a much better world look like?

The only bit I have heard is that many Israeli people have had a big problem before all this with Netanyahu and his politics. There were protests.

Without the iron dome defense system there wouldn't be much left of Israeli people to get rid of.

I do remember Naama Levy the 19 years old girl with her hands tied behind her back and the seat of her pants covered in blood, being dragged by her hair - she is a peacenik, she is a member of Hands of Peace, a cross cultural peace group. I heard a speech she gave about getting to know her Palestinian neighbours. There do seem to be quite a few people like that in Israel.

[isha]

It was my expression correct.
If total anihilation of gaza is the only way to get these terrorist thugs, then we need to rethink things.

Us is expert at removing people that they dont want in positions of power, globally. They have done it for decades. Most famous was the phoenix programme in Vietnam, and their technology and resources have increased 10,00 fold since then. Might be time for something similar.
Killing women and children puts us in the same place as what Hamas has already done. We cant do that surely.

I was watching the movie Munich this evening. The response to the 1972 Olympics attack was to take the people responsible out, one by one. Maybe they should have waited, stayed quiet, improved defences to protect against another massacre, and then quietly slowly killed the leaders and anyone involved. It would probably be next to impossible.

[jmayo]

We need to permanently expel the US ambassador as well as the so-called "ambassador" of the fake Zionist state in Palestine.

Meanwhile back in the real world.

And people wonder why some of us make jokes about certain parties and their supporters believing in a magic money tree.

[jmayo]

The fact that the US is supplying most of the munitions now to facilitate the murder of women and children, no matter what the excuse is, is totally unacceptable in todays society. And the only bonus to the US is dollars.

This isn't about money, well not money from sale of arms and munitions.

The US is making a statement of intent, not just in allowing Israel deal with a terrorist organisation intent on the destruction of Israel and the genocide of Jews.
And yes their genocide plans are plain to see from what hamas did on Oct 7th and their pronouncements before and since.
So the hamas apologists are really anti-semites no matter how they try and swing it or how much they ignore those that question them.
Of course they will spew shyte about genocide of Palestinians when really if that was what Israel were really going to do they would just blanket bomb the livin' shyte out of Gaza.
It would be a lot easier in terms of Israeli casualties.

Also the US is sending a message to Iran and by extension Russi and China.
We stand by our long term major allies.
This isn't a Trump presidency where he would sell out his mother if he thought he could get away with it.

[PureIsle]

Whatever Israel should have done in response to Oct 7 events, what they did, and continue to do, for two months now, on a daily basis, is most certainly unacceptable to people as the worldwide street protests affirm.
That the representatives of those protesting - their governments - do little to slap down this Israeli murder campaign is the most reprehensible of all.

At minimum all trade should be stopped with Israel especially by countries like Ireland, who do not have any military power.
Other countries - power players - need to step up to stop this genocide.

[jmayo]

What percentage of Israelis are Zionists I wonder? I don't know. Is it the older generation?

How does it happen that the Zionists are gotten rid of? What does getting rid of them for a much better world look like?

The only bit I have heard is that many Israeli people have had a big problem before all this with Netanyahu and his politics. There were protests.

Without the iron dome defense system there wouldn't be much left of Israeli people to get rid of.

I do remember Naama Levy the 19 years old girl with her hands tied behind her back and the seat of her pants covered in blood, being dragged by her hair - she is a peacenik, she is a member of Hands of Peace, a cross cultural peace group. I heard a speech she gave about getting to know her Palestinian neighbours. There do seem to be quite a few people like that in Israel.

What hamas did on Oct 7th was the nearest thing to do what happened to Jews in WWII.
It was the greatest single days loss of Jewish lives since the Shoah.

Let that sink in.

No matter how much of a peacenik you are, no matter how much you detest Netanyahu, his right wingers and cronies, you see that once again someone wants to wipe you and your family off the face of the planet soley because you are of a certain religious group and you live in a certain country.

A country rallies around it's leaders when attacked.

Put yourself in the boots of the Israeli soldiers, you have come through the area that was attacked, you have seen what was done, you have heard the stories of what was done to women and children.
What do you think they do when they get into Gaza and get at what they think are the people that perpetrated the attack and support the attackers.

If anything I think they are behaving a lot better than I would expect in similar instances.

[isha]

Whatever Israel should have done in response to Oct 7 events, what they did, and continue to do, for two months now, on a daily basis, is most certainly unacceptable to people as the worldwide street protests affirm.
That the representatives of those protesting - their governments - do little to slap down this Israeli murder campaign is the most reprehensible of all.

At minimum all trade should be stopped with Israel especially by countries like Ireland, who do not have any military power.
Other countries - power players - need to step up to stop this genocide.

What should Israel have done? You still have not said.


Personally I am not overly impressed by street protests anymore, though I have been on very many myself. The idiocy of the world taking to the streets for George Floyd really showed me what fevers can possess the crowd.

Plus street protests for Palestine happened when Israel had not yet responded. In the immediate aftermath of mass rape and massacre by Hamas, people took to the streets in great numbers to show their support for Palestine. I find that revolting.

What shocks me is how the people protesting now have largely engaged in either minimising or ignoring what the savages did on October 7th. I'm only prepared to listen to those who condemn BOTH sides equally now. Not some minimising bullshit about colonial power and what do you expect poor oppressed people to do. Sickening. Those protesters who don't condemn October 7th are not worth my consideration.

I also think a LOT of the people on the marches come from cultural backgrounds where they have grown up learning to viscerally hate Jews. There are a lot of basically Islamists on the marches, people with fundamental religious beliefs and what I consider backwards cultural habits who now live in great numbers in western cities.

And the rest include young people who latch on to every social justice cause like they did with Floyd, without knowing very much at all of the history or nuance. And old lefties on the side of the oppressed since the 60s and 70s and 80s (justifiably so, I consider myself among them) but many of these people have, very surprisingly to me, revealed themselves to have barely controlled antisemitic feelings.

[quodec]

Well said isha. Lots of people out there who will jump at the chance to wave a flag or protest over the barest whim, without being informed. Latent anarchists many of them with too much time on their hands!!!

[isha]

To be clear, I completely disapprove of this terrible bombardment of innocent civilians in Gaza. It's deplorable.

I can understand people being horrified and going out on the streets.

I would also go out, if there had been mass condemnations of what Hamas did to Israeli citizens.

But there really wasn't. Not very much at all. This has arrested my emotions back on that day. I have not been able to get past it because of the mass "contextualisation" that has occurred among supposedly civilised people of what I found to be mind blowing brutality.

And from the footage I have seen of the marches, I've seen jihad banners, antisemitic placards, islamists and wokesters calling for Intifada, attacks on Jewish owned premises, chants that are genocidal in intent including gas the Jews, etc etc etc

There is no way I could march and be associated with such dreadful stuff. Even though I want a ceasefire.

[jmayo]

What should Israel have done? You still have not said.
...

Don't expect an answer to that.
That poster has been dumping shyte all over this thread since the start.
Yeah they will say that they abhor what happened on Oct7th, but the very next thing you find them saying half the Israelis killed were someway military i.e. legitimate targets, that a quarter were killed by Israeli tanks and the other quarter killed by Apache gunships.

Then you will be told how the hostages were well treated because they shook hands with their captives and it had nothing to do with fact there were still other hostages there that might be harmed if they don't play along.

Then we will hear how the Israelis have done nothing but carry out genocide on Palestinians for the last 50 years.
From what I know of Israelis, they are kind of efficient so if they have been carrying out genocide for 50 odd years how come there are so many Palestinians.

[PureIsle]

Gideon Levi analyses Israeli attitudes.

What should Israel have done? You still have not said.


Personally I am not overly impressed by street protests anymore, though I have been on very many myself. The idiocy of the world taking to the streets for George Floyd really showed me what fevers can possess the crowd.

Plus street protests for Palestine happened when Israel had not yet responded. In the immediate aftermath of mass rape and massacre by Hamas, people took to the streets in great numbers to show their support for Palestine. I find that revolting.

What shocks me is how the people protesting now have largely engaged in either minimising or ignoring what the savages did on October 7th. I'm only prepared to listen to those who condemn BOTH sides equally now. Not some minimising bullshit about colonial power and what do you expect poor oppressed people to do. Sickening. Those protesters who don't condemn October 7th are not worth my consideration.

I also think a LOT of the people on the marches come from cultural backgrounds where they have grown up learning to viscerally hate Jews. There are a lot of basically Islamists on the marches, people with fundamental religious beliefs and what I consider backwards cultural habits who now live in great numbers in western cities.

And the rest include young people who latch on to every social justice cause like they did with Floyd, without knowing very much at all of the history or nuance. And old lefties on the side of the oppressed since the 60s and 70s and 80s (justifiably so, I consider myself among them) but many of these people have, very surprisingly to me, revealed themselves to have barely controlled antisemitic feelings.

How can you, while declaring that you supported the side of the oppressed now imply that the Palestinian situation only deserved protestations after Oct 7th?
Maybe you missed out on the protests about the Palestinian situation during those decades?

I also note that in your recent posts you have begun to play the 'anti-Semite' card.
I expected better from you.
But there we have it.

[knownunknown]

When September 11th happened, some people tried to make the conversation about the Middle East, and the US’s terrible presence there, that they had brought this upon themselves. A warped and disturbed interpretation of events.

Similar to seeing some people marching for Palestine after a horrific attack on Israel on Oct. 7th. They were ‘protesting’ previous incidents just after the government that claims to represent them killed hundreds of people in cold blood. Doesn’t matter what they were doing, it doesn’t look good. There is a time and a place.

Just after the September 11th attacks is not a good time to march for Iraq or Afghanistan or Iran or wherever.

[isha]

Gideon Levi analyses Israeli attitudes.






How can you, while declaring that you supported the side of the oppressed now imply that the Palestinian situation only deserved protestations after Oct 7th?
Maybe you missed out on the protests about the Palestinian situation during those decades?

I also note that in your recent posts you have begun to play the 'anti-Semite' card.
I expected better from you.
But there we have it.

People who went out on the streets the day after the October 7th massacre, which we had all already seen clear footage and photos of because the Intifada was abundantly televised by Hamas, were not protesting in favour of Palestinians, as we have done for many years. No, they were celebrating the rising up of the oppressed against their colonizers knowing that this uprising was done via mass rape. It was absolutely vile. People could only be antisemitic to do that.

[isha]

And shag off with your "I expect better from you". Fkn hell, the nuns used to say that to me in primary school.
I'm not here to coddle favour with anyone. I don't care who disapproves of me. Just because I support a person's viewpoint in one case, doesn't mean I support their every fecken opinion. It's nothing personal.

And people on here are displaying definite antisemitism. I didn't say who. But it's there.

[Norman Breaks]

Hating Jews is antisemitism
Hating Israel is antisemitism
Antizionism is antisemitism
Supporting Palestinians is antisemitism
Calling for a cease fire is antisemitism
Criticizing collective punishment is antisemitism
Antiapartheid is antisemitism
Zionism is antisemitism
2 states is antisemitism
Asking for basic human rights is antisemitism
River to the Sea is antisemitism
Eating Hummus is antisemitism
Hugging your granny is antisemitism
Petting a dog is antisemitism
Antisemitism is antisemitism

[isha]

That's a fairly dumb argument in fairness.

But
Hating Jews is antisemitism -yes
Hating Israel is antisemitism - yes
Antizionism is antisemitism - no
Supporting Palestinians is antisemitism - no
Calling for a cease fire is antisemitism - no
Criticizing collective punishment is antisemitism - no
Antiapartheid is antisemitism - no
Zionism is antisemitism- no
2 states is antisemitism - no
Asking for basic human rights is antisemitism - no
River to the Sea is antisemitism - yes
Eating Hummus is antisemitism - no
Hugging your granny is antisemitism - no
Petting a dog is antisemitism - no
Antisemitism is antisemitism - yes


I hope that helps.

Anyway I'm off away for a fair while. All the best.

[Norman Breaks]

Depends who is pontificating. There are many you say no to that I've seen described as such.

[PureIsle]

And shag off with your "I expect better from you". Fkn hell, the nuns used to say that to me in primary school.

I was apparently mistaken in thinking, based on some of your previous posts, that you had the ability to be balanced in your view.
What I read from your posts in this thread is your anti-Muslim/anti-Arab sentiments and anyone who disagrees and considers the Zionist apartheid state of Israel despicable are termed anti-Semite.

I'm not here to coddle favour with anyone. I don't care who disapproves of me. Just because I support a person's viewpoint in one case, doesn't mean I support their every fecken opinion. It's nothing personal.

And people on here are displaying definite antisemitism. I didn't say who. But it's there.

Why not call it out with relevant quotes?

Hating Jews is antisemitism -yes
Hating Israel is antisemitism - yes
Antizionism is antisemitism - no

So even though Israel is presently an apartheid Zionist state with the declared aim of expelling all Palestinians (those who manage to survive the genocide), hating that state's actions is anti-Semitism according to you.
On that we absolutely disagree!

[isha]

What I read from your posts in this thread is your anti-Muslim/anti-Arab sentiments

I have repeatedly said that the bombardment of Gaza must stop. I have repeatedly spoken about innocent Palestinian civilians.

But I utterly deplore Hamas. Just like I deplore ISIS, and the Taliban and any jihadi terrorists fueled by religious fundamentalism. And I won't stay quiet about that.

And I call out any population living anywhere in the world who give any succour or support to those brutal jihadists, be those people Muslim or woke young western people with not a clue.

I have zero tolerance for anyone who pushes cultural relativism and insists that some religions or cultures keeping women in black sacks is cool, or we can't criticise them not educating girls, or them thinking that slicing off the clitoris of girls is appropriate. Do you know that there are well over 10,000 girls and women in Ireland who have had their genitals mutilated and varying degrees of infibulation done afterwards? That means removing the clitoris and in some cases then sewing up the vulva so that urination and menstruation is difficult and painful and sex is agonising? 10,000 girls and women here in Ireland alone who have undergone this either by going back to countries that do it or via an underground network of FGM providers here!! And not one single prosecution!

I know some devout Muslims personally, who are very good, wise people AND religious. I have lived in various Muslim countries for a few years. I have read and sincerely appreciated way more Islamic esoteric literature than the vast majority of people who think they are super supportive of Muslims and Arabs.

But I will not be silenced by being called "anti-Muslim and anti-Arab" from being able to state that the unreformed, fundamentalist, Jew-hating, proselytising forms of Islam that proliferate in modern times in many places including the west are very bad, obscenely destructive to their own people in their home places who live under their brutal regimes, are not welcome here, are dangerous to secular civilisation, and frankly are terrifying for females everywhere. I know this on behalf of the huge numbers of Muslim girls and women (and the men who love them) suffering under the iron rule of repressive medieval theocracies in Afghanistan, Iran, Palestine, etc etc.

So no, I'm not anti-Arab or anti-Muslim. I'm unapologetically ANTI fundamentalist Islamism.

[marhay70]

I have repeatedly said that the bombardment of Gaza must stop. I have repeatedly spoken about innocent Palestinian civilians.

But I utterly deplore Hamas. Just like I deplore ISIS, and the Taliban and any jihadi terrorists fueled by religious fundamentalism. And I won't stay quiet about that.

And I call out any population living anywhere in the world who give any succour or support to those brutal jihadists, be those people Muslim or woke young western people with not a clue.

I have zero tolerance for anyone who pushes cultural relativism and insists that some religions or cultures keeping women in black sacks is cool, or we can't criticise them not educating girls, or them thinking that slicing off the clitoris of girls is appropriate. Do you know that there are well over 10,000 girls and women in Ireland who have had their genitals mutilated and varying degrees of infibulation done afterwards? That means removing the clitoris and in some cases then sewing up the vulva so that urination and menstruation is difficult and painful and sex is agonising? 10,000 girls and women here in Ireland alone who have undergone this either by going back to countries that do it or via an underground network of FGM providers here!! And not one single prosecution!

I know some devout Muslims personally, who are very good, wise people AND religious. I have lived in various Muslim countries for a few years. I have read and sincerely appreciated way more Islamic esoteric literature than the vast majority of people who think they are super supportive of Muslims and Arabs.

But I will not be silenced by being called "anti-Muslim and anti-Arab" from being able to state that the unreformed, fundamentalist, Jew-hating, proselytising forms of Islam that proliferate in modern times in many places including the west are very bad, obscenely destructive to their own people in their home places who live under their brutal regimes, are not welcome here, are dangerous to secular civilisation, and frankly are terrifying for females everywhere. I know this on behalf of the huge numbers of Muslim girls and women (and the men who love them) suffering under the iron rule of repressive medieval theocracies in Afghanistan, Iran, Palestine, etc etc.

So no, I'm not anti-Arab or anti-Muslim. I'm unapologetically ANTI fundamentalist Islamism.

Very noticeable that our pro Hamas friend chose to reply to you after you had said you'd be away for a while. Par for the course in their case.

[PureIsle]

@isha
My main point is/was the lack of balance. This thread is "Israel and Palestine" but there is precious little written by most contributors about Israel's actions and pronouncements.

I doubt anyone here would agree with FMGM and other such horrific practices.
No one disagrees that the actions of some Hamas fighters on Oct 7th were completely unacceptable also.
You have repeatedly referred to "mass rape", but honestly I have failed to see corroboration of any "mass" rape. I have no doubt that there were incidences of rape on Oct 7th. As you said Hamas fighters produced many videos of their actions on the day, some showing horrific murders, but somehow I have missed those "mass" rapes on video; not even one have I seen.
I have no doubt that there was significant 'sexual abuse', but that covers a very wide range, only one of which is rape.

Now where is the condemnation for the 60+ days of the Israeli revenge?
One might expect a lot more commentary on 60+ days' actions than on 1 day's action.
That does not appear to be the way it is.

Have you seen the testimony of Hadas Dagan, a survivor of the Kibbutz Be'eri attack on Oct 7th?
Israel used heavy weapons on Israeli homes murdering many. Those with her were murdered by Israeli heavy weapons, including a Hamas fighter who was holding them captive.
There is also other testimony about similar events, some from the Israeli military personnel themselves.

Remember the Palestinian women and children, as well as men, in Gaza, who are, on a daily basis, torn to little bits such that parts have to be gathered up and put into bags to be buried, as a result of bombing and heavy missiles from aircraft and tanks?
The only beheaded baby I saw was a Palestinian child who was beheaded as a result of an Israeli bomb.

Israel's actions are murderous in the extreme.

Israel has made many false claims about the events of 7th Oct to the point that everything they claim must be considered suspect, IMO, until independently corroborated.

Pointing out the despicable actions of one side of this conflict does not show or imply support of the despicable actions of the other.

But IMO balance is needed, and both side's actions must be open to scrutiny.

EDIT:

But I utterly deplore Hamas. Just like I deplore ISIS, and the Taliban and any jihadi terrorists fueled by religious fundamentalism. And I won't stay quiet about that.

But you do stay quiet about the equally deplorable Israeli religious fundamental view that their god gave the Israelis the right to all the Palestinian lands, and more, and encourages them to wipe out the 'less than human' Palestinians. All based on their interpretation of their 'holt book'.

[PureIsle]

John Mearsheimer puts his view on record.

https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/deat ... le&r=6x3tl

EDIT:
As I cannot edit my previous post I just want to post a correction - end of previous post says
'holt book'
It should of course be
'holy book'

[PureIsle]

It appears that Israel is conducting somewhat similar operations in the West Bank and brought in 1,400 reservists to help with the operation.
The destruction and killing is ongoing in various towns and villages.

I wonder what excuse Israel has for this, considering Hamas has no presence in the West Bank.

[PureIsle]

Some cracks are beginning to appear in the Israeli narrative about the events of Oct. 7th.

First up is the revelation that the "witness" who related how he saw 29 innocent civilians murdered by Hamas fighters at the Nova event was completely fabricated. Some fact checking revealed he was not even at the event!



https://countylocalnews.com/article1/20 ... eli-media/

The media removing their false reports and claiming that as proof they are good.
They should have left it there with big bold FALSE splashed across it.
That at least would inform people, instead they delete it and those who had previously read it continue to believe it.



Then we have " the first known official army admission that a significant number of the hundreds of Israelis who died on 7 October were killed by Israel itself, and not by Hamas or other Palestinian resistance factions." We previously had individual military personnel telling about the indiscriminate destruction of Israeli homes as well as survivors relating similar events.

Citing new data released by the Israeli military, Zeitun wrote that: “Casualties fell as a result of friendly fire on October 7, but the IDF [Israeli military] believes that … it would not be morally sound to investigate” them.
He reported that this was “due to the immense and complex quantity of them that took place in the kibbutzim and southern Israeli communities.”

How many of the revised number of 1,200 dead Israelis constitute the 'immense quantity'?
Not investigate on the basis of morality? FFS!

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/as ... -7-october

It is beginning to become clear that Israel has been pushing a false narrative of the events of Oct. 7th, possibly to cover up their security failure on the day, and to get their citizens behind their murderous actions in Gaza.

I expect there is much more to be revealed. Hopefully the full truth will be told - eventually.