Brexit is Brilliant (or is it?)

[6456739]

A symbolic tweaking? I don't think the most ardent FGer would dare put that level of spin on it.

Come back to me when you've finished the Comical Ali routine.

Beyond pathetic. The tax haven thing was always going to come to an end at some point. The idea that corporate profits are all that matters is just perverse.

[Banshee Bones]

While we're on the subject, if you think the French entered into any sort of informal agreement, trading border control for bulding aircraft carriers for the Brits (when the Brits have no plans to build any more aircraft carriers in the first place) then I can't take you seriously at all.

Even if the Brits were to build another carrier, nobody above the age of 5 would believe that the Brits would allow a massive PR disaster by having their carrier not only built outside Britain, but in France, of all places

Jesus wept.

[Banshee Bones]

Beyond pathetic. The tax haven thing was always going to come to an end at some point. The idea that corporate profits are all that matters is just perverse.

oh aye, thats why FF/FG were telling us they'd never agree to it.

The big lads brought the gombeens into the room and told them what they'd do, just like they did in 2011

If France and Germany decide that kicking the Brits is no longer worth it, they'll settle the border issue on behalf of Ireland and the gombeens in government will grin and bear it.

And the gobshites will be telling us that there was always going to be a compromise or some such nonsense as a way of coping

[6456739]

oh aye, thats why FF/FG were telling us they'd never agree to it.

The big lads brought the gombeens into the room and told them what they'd do, just like they did in 2011

If France and Germany decide that kicking the Brits is no longer worth it, they'll settle the border issue on behalf of Ireland and the gombeens in government will grin and bear it.

And the gobshites will be telling us that there was always going to be a compromise or some such nonsense as a way of coping

Prove it.

[CelticRambler]

Interesting to hear a continental perspective. Macron has an election coming up and the Brits have softened themselves up nicely for a cheap political win.

When I read Irish-in-Ireland commentary about the disruption caused by Brexit, it highlights for me how so many "back home" are as disconnected from reality as many of the most ardent Brexiters.

Comparing like with like, Brexit has has a considerably greater (negative) effect on my life and that of my (continental) family, friends and professional colleagues than our peers in Ireland, mostly due to the seriously policed hard border between the Continent and GB. I don't think the Irish-in-Ireland fully appreciate the huge advantage the NIP and the Common Travel Area has given them.

School tours, for example, for the Irish (Covid restrictions permitting) can continue as before. For the French, going to GB now is out of the question, because 90% of any class will not have a passport - only a carte d'identité - and that's a major new cost to ask of any family for the sake of a few days.

[6456739]

When I read Irish-in-Ireland commentary about the disruption caused by Brexit, it highlights for me how so many "back home" are as disconnected from reality as many of the most ardent Brexiters.

Comparing like with like, Brexit has has a considerably greater (negative) effect on my life and that of my (continental) family, friends and professional colleagues than our peers in Ireland, mostly due to the seriously policed hard border between the Continent and GB. I don't think the Irish-in-Ireland fully appreciate the huge advantage the NIP and the Common Travel Area has given them.

School tours, for example, for the Irish (Covid restrictions permitting) can continue as before. For the French, going to GB now is out of the question, because 90% of any class will not have a passport - only a carte d'identité - and that's a major new cost to ask of any family for the sake of a few days.

Well, it's back to the old adage of not appreciating something until it's gone I suppose.

Has Brexit really impacted you in France?

[CelticRambler]

Well, it's back to the old adage of not appreciating something until it's gone I suppose.

Has Brexit really impacted you in France?

Yep. It's wiped out a very important source of new graduates for a role I'm trying to fill on a rolling basis (although it puts the Irish graduates in top position). It's forced me to make a trip to a physical post office when sending parcels to family in GB, whereas those in the rest of the EU can have a package collected from my postbox. My own travel to and from England would usually involve (and be partially subsidised) by transporting chilled foodstuffs in both directions; that's out now. A music festival I work with has (potentially) lost 10% of its exhibitors, because they fall foul of the new import and VAT rules (absolutely impossible to document the approximately 5000 items they'd typically bring with them to sell for cash in a field) and they can't piggy back their merchandise sales on a concert performance because their pet artists are unlikely to be able to perform.

They're a few of the first-hand negatives. I've heard of dozens of second-hand reports of people involved in education at every level who have effectively wiped GB off their map of Europe, primarily on account of the non-recognition of the carte d'identité for primary and junior cycle secondary school pupils, and primarily on account of working visa requirements and the non-recognition of GB training facilities/qualifications for senior cycle secondary and post-secondary students.

And then there are the third-hand accounts (coming to a head now) of tourist attractions - especially skiing - that previously targeted the British market and employed British workers; now that they've got a tentative green light to operate ski lifts and après-ski venues this winter, they're feeling the effects of not having British workers to grease the wheels of that particular market (especially school trips). Yes, they can increase their Dutch and German clientele - but they're not as easy to scalp as the Brits (or the Irish).

[6456739]

To be honest, I still like living in the UK but it's the uncertainty that's the worst thing about being here. Food supply IME is largely the same as it always was. Chicken is a bit scarcer and that's about it. Pints of milk seem to be in short supply.

I'd heard the music industry was taking a bit of a pounding. Here, musicians would be "loony lefty elites" so nobody cares. Same sort of short termist BS that led us to this mess. Thanks for that.

I've personally sent a few job applications to Belgium and the Netherlands. Think my being only able to speak English rules me out of anything. If I thought that England would grow up and we'd have some sort of consensus at some point, it'd make living here a lot more pleasant. It is what it is. I didn't think there were so many sectors looking for English speakers. I've my nationality at the top of me CV for all the good it does.

[CelticRambler]

The demand for (native) English-speakers tends to be in niches, and many of these couldn't really do anything to prepare because they had to wait and see how the whole thing would work out. For everyone else, rightly or wrongly, Brexit was considered "done" in 2016 and in general conversation at least, the only question was how far out into the Atlantic the arc full of Unicorns would sail.

Right up until last year, though, it was still treated as typical British eccentricity. Now, however - in a bizarrely ironic twist - the topic of immigration has revealed a vicious streak of anglophobia that wasn't evident before. Every time a non-white migrant commits some newsworthy criminal act somewhere in western Europe, there is a chorus of voices asking why France is preventing these undesirables from leaving the EU, when "we" don't want them, and "they" want to go to the UK.

Since the UK has withdrawn from the Dublin Treaty that governs demands for asylum in the EU, there's only the bilateral Franco-British treaty keeping so many resources tied up in not letting so many migrants continue on their journey, out of the Schengen Area. I don't know what break clause is in that treaty, but I'm pretty sure Macron - or whoever replaces him next year - will invoke it if manners need to be put on the current British administration.

[CelticRambler]

In the meantime, I see that The Guardian is reporting that the Irish government is dusting off the Hard Brexit manual of contingency measures.

Funny that - how the Irish government seems to have a "what if" file already prepared and ready to put into action. Anyone would think that they had trust issues with the Tories ...

[95438756]

Pot & kettle much or just straight projection
Projection:
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/111 ... xit-talks/

[6456739]

Pot & kettle much or just straight projection
Projection:
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/111 ... xit-talks/

You could give an opinion as opposed to just dumping a link here.

[Scotty]

Westminster doesn't give a flying f*** about NI. They'll keep threatening Article 16 until eventually it's triggered. It was a ridiculous idea to begin with anyway, having a customs border WITHIN your own 'country'.

Unfortunately though, given our history, having a hard border between ROI and NI is going to lead to some very serious problems.

[6456739]

Westminster doesn't give a flying f*** about NI. They'll keep threatening Article 16 until eventually it's triggered. It was a ridiculous idea to begin with anyway, having a customs border WITHIN your own 'country'.

Unfortunately though, given our history, having a hard border between ROI and NI is going to lead to some very serious problems.

Pretty much.

Like, any other country in the world would be in uproar if their leader was asked 5 times at the top global conference if their country was corrupt. Imagine the fury if Biden, Macron or Merkel was spoken to like that by their own press.

The deal at the time was presented here as a triumph. It was Johnson's "oven ready" deal. They've basically carved up their own country and it's being presented as a win.

[CelticRambler]

Westminster doesn't give a flying f*** about NI. They'll keep threatening Article 16 until eventually it's triggered. It was a ridiculous idea to begin with anyway, having a customs border WITHIN your own 'country'.

Better tell that to the US, then, where they have both customs and SPS borders between parts of their own country, and no particular "third party" reason to do so.

As has been said many, many times now, across countless platforms, the ridiculous idea to begin with was to embark on "Brexit" without ever defining what "Brexit" meant in real terms. The NIP is the best compromise that could ever have been agreed, given the ridiculousness of the Johnson-Frost version of Brexit. The only thing that is still ridiculous at this stage is Johnson-Frost threatening and trying to undo a version of Brexit that is actually working for those who have to live with it, even in it's incomplete state.

[6456739]

Better tell that to the US, then, where they have both customs and SPS borders between parts of their own country, and no particular "third party" reason to do so.

As has been said many, many times now, across countless platforms, the ridiculous idea to begin with was to embark on "Brexit" without ever defining what "Brexit" meant in real terms. The NIP is the best compromise that could ever have been agreed, given the ridiculousness of the Johnson-Frost version of Brexit. The only thing that is still ridiculous at this stage is Johnson-Frost threatening and trying to undo a version of Brexit that is actually working for those who have to live with it, even in it's incomplete state.

I don't think the comparison with the US is helpful. The UK is arguably the most centralized state in the world. It's population tends to be concentrated both in cities and in southeast England. The US has a long history of being federalised by contrast.

But, yes. Brexit and the border issue which was apparent from the get-go is an idea of monumental stupidity.

[Scotty]

Better tell that to the US...

States are almost like countries though, each with their own laws and taxes. There's still a little movement in California to have it become independent. Btw, if it did, it would have the fifth largest economy in the world, ahead of India and Germany.

the ridiculous idea to begin with was to embark on "Brexit" without ever defining what "Brexit" meant in real terms.

Yep, they voted 5 years ago on a referendum and still haven't decided what the question was.

[CelticRambler]

I don't think the comparison with the US is helpful. The UK is arguably the most centralized state in the world. It's population tends to be concentrated both in cities and in southeast England. The US has a long history of being federalised by contrast.

Well, "centralised" yes - but only to the extent that it has always been two kingdoms, two islands, not one, and what happens on the western one has always been handled differently to what happens on the eastern one. The GFA was a solution to the disputed "shared" territory and was things were ticking along nicely till some English nationalists decided it was important to give two fingers to the French and the Germans.

Under such circumstances, as has always been the case, it is entirely reasonable for part of a country to opt for a degree of - or even officially recognised - autonomy, with the frontier controls that come with such a decision. As we've seen from recent surveys and opinion polls, the NI electorate who voted against Brexit are more happy with than unhappy with the current solution. It is therefore reasonable to deduce that their needs are being better heard and met by Brussels/Dublin than by London; and that being the case, it is equally reasonable for London to be told to "put up and shut up" (as far as NI is concerned).

[6456739]

Well, "centralised" yes - but only to the extent that it has always been two kingdoms, two islands, not one, and what happens on the western one has always been handled differently to what happens on the eastern one. The GFA was a solution to the disputed "shared" territory and was things were ticking along nicely till some English nationalists decided it was important to give two fingers to the French and the Germans.

Under such circumstances, as has always been the case, it is entirely reasonable for part of a country to opt for a degree of - or even officially recognised - autonomy, with the frontier controls that come with such a decision. As we've seen from recent surveys and opinion polls, the NI electorate who voted against Brexit are more happy with than unhappy with the current solution. It is therefore reasonable to deduce that their needs are being better heard and met by Brussels/Dublin than by London; and that being the case, it is equally reasonable for London to be told to "put up and shut up" (as far as NI is concerned).

I'm not against the protocol. My point is that it is an additional degree of separation as a result of the Brexit that NI opposed in 2016. There were sanitary and phytosanitary checks in place pre-Brexit AFAIK.

This change isn't down to a desire for autonomy, it's because it was convenient for Johnson at the time to divide his country moreso than it arguably was already and now that it is not so convenient, he is back peddaling.

[CelticRambler]

Kick 'em when they're down, eh? The irony keeps twisting, over here in the French part of continental Europe, as "fish" and "immigrants" are really shaping up to be two hot topics for next year's presidential election, and Brexit is providing a useful backdrop against which to measure the various candidates' performance.

This week, it's the fishermen who are (again) centre stage, having won compensation from Macron for disruption to their business through Jersey's refusal to let them fish in British waters. But seeing as they'd rather have their business back than government handouts, they're planning to take an interesting approach to the negotiations: a export blocade.

There would be no wholesale blockade of French ports, Leprêtre told a meeting of fishers in Boulogne-sur-Mer. “We are aiming more to target exports, because we don’t want to harm the French economy,” he said. “We want to affect the UK’s economy. We will do this properly – and we will do it.”

Leprêtre added: “The poor British are already lacking some products since Brexit, and unfortunately they’re about to be lacking a few more …"

[Del.Monte]

“Take my drum to England, hang it by the shore,
And strike it when your powder’s running low;
If the Dons sight Devon, I’ll quit the port of
heaven, and drum them up the channel as we
drummed them long ago.”

https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/L ... akes-Drum/

[Scotty]

When sending goods to the UK you have to declare the country of Origin, where it was made in other words. A lot of my products would originate in China which carries a 2% excise but I'd often list Ireland or Italy as the COO which has 0%. It saves my customers a few £ while not costing the Irish exchequer anything.

From 1st January though you'll have to provide proof of COO. This will further increase inflation in the UK and puts yet more red tape in the way of our exports.

[CelticRambler]

YouTuber, Phil Moorhouse, has been making the point recently that British businesses are not ready for this either. They've got used to slapping a Union Jack on the package, ticking the box "Made in Britain" and thinking that they're all done with the COO rules. If true, many of their drop-shippers and re-exporters are going to find themselves landed with a load of one-star reviews and/or a warehouseful of rejected deliveries at the start of the New Year.

[CelticRambler]

Oh la la - David Frost has decided to jump before Boris could push him under the Big Red Brexit Bus!

On the same day that the DUP express their profound disappointment in Frost's apparent capitulation to the EU on the subject of the NIP, i.e. treating it with the respect an international treaty deserves.

[CelticRambler]

The dividends keep coming ... as long as you're not British:

Eurovoyages, a big French school trips operator, said that as of last month it had received 53 requests for short-stay visits to Ireland next year, as well as others for the Netherlands, Poland, Germany, Austria and the Czech Republic.

“We have received precisely two requests for the UK, one of which has already changed its mind and decided to visit Ireland,” said Monique Tissot Martel, the company’s general manager. “Schools have forgotten the UK was a destination.”

According to this Guardian article, the biggest factor is the UK's decision to not recognise EU national identity cards. The UK government, sticking it's head in the sand, says it's the pandemic innit. Either way, for little old Ireland to be enjoying 25-50 times the business being done in/with the UK, that's some serious shifting of paradigms.