Brexit is Brilliant (or is it?)

[CelticRambler]

as a hardline pro-UK unionist and anti-EU integrationist I would have voted in favour of leaving if I had been living in the UK at the time ...

One thing for sure, there's no way back.

... leaving the EU could be catastrophic for the Union but that problem was coming down the road anyway.

How do you reconcile a hardline pro-UK unionist stance with apparent casual acceptance of the break-up of the (British) Union, greatly aided by the decision to leave the EU.

And if one accepts that a Leave vote was/will be instrumental in pushing Scotland and NI out of the UK and back into the arms of the EU, how would you reconcile that decision with being anti-EU integrationist?

[6456739]

Brexit is 'our' destiny wherever that take us and as a hardline pro-UK unionist and anti-EU integrationist I would have voted in favour of leaving if I had been living in the UK at the time - despite it being bad for me on a personal level. Indeed, it is proving a major inconvenience to me living in Ireland but that's life. The more I hear people harping on about the British public being ignorant/lied to or didn''t know what they were voting on, the more entrenched my views have become that the vote to leave was the correct one. One thing for sure, there's no way back.

PS I'm well aware that leaving the EU could be catastrophic for the Union but that problem was coming down the road anyway.

I'm afraid that this makes no sense. The Euroscepticism I get but Brexit is undermining the union. It's hammered home to the Scots and the Northern Irish how unfair and undemocratic it is. Personally, I'm hoping that the union breaks up for the sake of all four member states, particularly Scotland and Northern Ireland.

None of this was inevitable. The Scottish question had been settled for a generation and the Unionists could continue to collect their handouts.

[Peregrinus]

Brexit is 'our' destiny wherever that take us and as a hardline pro-UK unionist and anti-EU integrationist I would have voted in favour of leaving if I had been living in the UK at the time - despite it being bad for me on a personal level. Indeed, it is proving a major inconvenience to me living in Ireland but that's life. The more I hear people harping on about the British public being ignorant/lied to or didn''t know what they were voting on, the more entrenched my views have become that the vote to leave was the correct one. One thing for sure, there's no way back.

PS I'm well aware that leaving the EU could be catastrophic for the Union but that problem was coming down the road anyway.

Some unresolved tensions here, I think. You are "entrenched" in your view that "the vote to leave was the correct one" even though:

- you're a "hardline pro-UK unionist" and are "well aware that leaving the EU could be catastrophic for the Union"; and

- you're "an anti-EU integrationist" but Brexit has increased support for the European project and reduced euroscepticism within the EU, making further integration more, not less, likely.

In short, you're entrenched in support of a project which directly attacks and undermines your most cherished views, not to mention being "bad for you on a personal level".

Is there any outcome Brexit could have that would make you think it was a bad idea. Or do you think that its outcomes are simply irrelevant to its merits?

I'm also curious as to why you think "there's no way back", given that you consider it to be so damaging to things you regard as important. If you think those things are important, other people might too. And they might be more concerned than you are about the damage done by Brexit to their cherished causes, mightn't they? So they might be quite open to revisiting the wisdom of the Brexit decision. Why not?

[Scotty]

One thing for sure, there's no way back.

Never say never, but it's certainly unlikely.

I would have voted in favour of leaving if I had been living in the UK at the time - despite it being bad for me on a personal level.

This forum needs a facepalm emoji. Why would you cut off your nose to spite your face? Why?

[Del.Monte]

I'm well aware of all the contradictions in my earlier post but that's just the bizarre way that my mind works. In my way of thinking Brexit was a once in a lifetime opportunity to break free from the EU/United States of Europe project and the possible break-up of the Union was coming anyway.

And in answer to Scotty (above) nose/face reference - it is as I stated 'our' destiny and the Pavlov's Dog factor is strong in me.

[Hodors Appletart]

What USoE project?

Genuinely want to know what you mean by that?

[Del.Monte]

A United States of Europe largely controlled by Germany/France is obviously where it's going. If it had remained as it was when we joined, the European Economic Community, I would have no problem with but that's NOT what the EU is about.

[6456739]

The parties agitating for separation, ie Sinn Fein, the SNP and Plaid Cymru mainly would lean progressive. By linking EU membership with the UK as they did in 2014, the Tories created a very strong case for the continued existence of the latter. Now, though, the opposite has happened with separatist movements citing Brexit as justification for separatism and rightly so.

[6456739]

A United States of Europe largely controlled by Germany/France is obviously where it's going. If it had remained as it was when we joined, the European Economic Community, I would have no problem with but that's NOT what the EU is about.

This is just wrong. The EU/EEC/CaSC was never just a trade deal and there's no evidence to show that it's heading towards Franco-German dominance.

[Hodors Appletart]

A United States of Europe largely controlled by Germany/France is obviously where it's going. If it had remained as it was when we joined, the European Economic Community, I would have no problem with but that's NOT what the EU is about.

I don't know where to even begin with this errant nonsense

[Del.Monte]

Call it what you like but it's how I think - it would be a dull place if we all thought and believed the same thing.

[6456739]

Call it what you like but it's how I think - it would be a dull place if we all thought and believed the same thing.

Doesn't mean it's a reality-based view. You're welcome to whatever opinion you want but it'd be nice if you could make a case for it.

[CelticRambler]

I'm well aware of all the contradictions in my earlier post but that's just the bizarre way that my mind works. In my way of thinking Brexit was a once in a lifetime opportunity to break free from the EU/United States of Europe project and the possible break-up of the Union was coming anyway.

Do your bizarre mental gymnastics extend to arguing that the break-up of the (British) Union is inherently a Good Thing as it would be an opportunity for Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Northern Ireland to break free from the UK/United States of Britain project?

All of the arguments against a hypothetically more integrated USEurope, largely controlled by Germany/France, are matched by a very reall, fully integrated USBritain almost entirely controlled by England, under the benevolent gaze of an unelected leader. So surely all the arguments against EU membership support the break-up of the UK?

[Del.Monte]

Do your bizarre mental gymnastics extend to arguing that the break-up of the (British) Union is inherently a Good Thing as it would be an opportunity for Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Northern Ireland to break free from the UK/United States of Britain project?

All of the arguments against a hypothetically more integrated USEurope, largely controlled by Germany/France, are matched by a very reall, fully integrated USBritain almost entirely controlled by England, under the benevolent gaze of an unelected leader. So surely all the arguments against EU membership support the break-up of the UK?

The UK/United States of Britain is not a project, it is an historical fact, and as been for many centuries. I do not favour the break-up of the UK as it will only make us weaker but on balance would still have voted to leave the EU and keep my fingers crossed.

Surely I can't be the only person with contradictory views - if only everything was black and white life would be so simple. As it is not only am I a 'unionist', ant-EU integrationist but I'm also a monarchist, with strong green, socialist and right wing views on a myriad of issues. I probably need a spell on a psychiatrist's couch.

[CelticRambler]

The UK/United States of Britain is not a project, it is an historical fact, and as been for many centuries.

The European Union is just as much of an historical fact, even if not quite so historic. And the "UK" was (... is) just as much of a project, being at first the union of England and Wales, then the UK of England&Wales and Scotland, then the UK of GB and Ireland (with a passing notion of becoming the UK of GB, Ireland and France), and for the last hundred years re-written as the UK of GB and NI.

Would you campaign for a break-up of the US of America on the ground that that also was/is a project uniting four dozen independent states under one integrated federal banner (albeit not as united/integrated/harmonised as the EU in many respects) ; or does any merit in its continued status rest on the same "historical fact" that you use to justify the continued existence of the UKofGB&NI?

[Del.Monte]

I have no interest in the USA since 'we' gave them their independence (too early for their own good) and they can do what they like as long as they don't blow us all up in the process. There's also the 'special relationship' to be considered.

[Hodors Appletart]

(too early for their own good)

Wow, just....wow

I suppose you hold similar views about poor paddy too.

good grief the arrogance is astounding

[CelticRambler]

I have no interest in the USA since 'we' gave them their independence (too early for their own good) and they can do what they like as long as they don't blow us all up in the process. There's also the 'special relationship' to be considered.

That does seem to follow the Brexiter/Leaver mindset to a large extent: Brexit is good in and of itself; any comparison to other successful - or unsuccessful - political unions is of no interest or relevance. The union of the Kingdoms of England&Wales, Scotland and Ireland->Northern Ireland is Good because it was an English project back in the day (ergo historical fact) but the historical fact that states in Europe and in the Americas voluntarily decided to unite for their mutual benefit is Bad because it was a project (not directed and/or controlled by England).

[Del.Monte]

@ CelticRambler

Couldn't have put it better myself. We damn nearly had a United States of Europe in 1939 if the wicked Brits hadn't held out. Anyway, I'm out and back to posting about things that matter - birds, art, trains etc. Sorry for derailing the thread.

[RandallWeems]

We should be looking to do something similar. Europe has too much control over what we do here and our cowardly bootlicking politicians keep asking for more.

[6456739]

That does seem to follow the Brexiter/Leaver mindset to a large extent: Brexit is good in and of itself; any comparison to other successful - or unsuccessful - political unions is of no interest or relevance. The union of the Kingdoms of England&Wales, Scotland and Ireland->Northern Ireland is Good because it was an English project back in the day (ergo historical fact) but the historical fact that states in Europe and in the Americas voluntarily decided to unite for their mutual benefit is Bad because it was a project (not directed and/or controlled by England).

The ludicrous thing is that it could easily have been a project dominated by England but successive prime ministers were obsessed with the apocryphal "special relationship" with Washington and so ignored the continent, leaving a void which they could easily have filled.

[Peregrinus]

The UK/United States of Britain is not a project, it is an historical fact, and as been for many centuries. I do not favour the break-up of the UK as it will only make us weaker but on balance would still have voted to leave the EU and keep my fingers crossed.

Who's "us" in this sentence?

[Del.Monte]

Who's "us" in this sentence?

The UK - as I am posting from "a corner of a foreign field that is forever England" - apologies to Rupert Brooke. As I pointed out by PM to another poster who seemed offended by my posting - my tongue is firmly in my cheek a lot of the time. Monty Python says it best.

[Peregrinus]

But, again, you contradict yourself. You "do not favour the break-up of the UK as it will only make us weaker", but you do favour Brexit which, obviously, makes you weaker. So I gotta say that the real issue here is not an aversion to making the UK weaker; you're obviously prepared to make the UK weaker in order to acheive some other aim that you think Brexit serves.

Or - no offence - your distaste for the EU and so your support of Brexit is more emotional that rational. The existence and progress of the EU highlights the relative decline of the UK; hence you dislike it. Brexit, of course, highlights it still further and, indeed, exacerbates it. But the decline of the UK is, to borrow your own phrase, "an historical fact"; it cannot be prevented, but it can be psychologically denied. So Brexit is basically a form of psychological denial; by rejecting the EU you reject a reminder of the UK's decline, and that makes you feel good, at least in the short term. The rational side of you knows that this does nothing to arrest the arrest the decline of the and in fact probably accelerates it. But, hey, the decline is inevitable anyway. And we all do irrational things to make ourselves feel good even though we may regret them later.

[Del.Monte]

@ Peregrinus

The second part of your post sums up my position far better than I could have and it is emotion that drives my attitude towards the decline of the UK and dislike of the European project.