Welcome to GUBU.ie - if you're new here check out Housekeeping for more info. Any queries contact us.

The Mica Redress Scheme

The burning issues of the day
schmittel
Verified Username
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:15 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#1

Post by schmittel »

Good to hear someone else air these views, totally agree, but I think it's an unpopular opinion.
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#2

Post by kadman »

Surely the construction industry and home owners insurance should take the biggest hit. After all you are paying your insurance to protect the structural integrity of your home, but they will run for the hills, lie and cheat to avoid being found culpable.

The regulation and enforcement in this country is non existent , and has been as such for decades. Just remember the school building debacle, with all the repairs needed to new buildings. I dont believe the home owner should take any hit at all, they have no input into the materials and sign offs involved in their home. Thats what they pay the builder, architect, engineer, and government and insurance for..

I have worked on major sites with dispicable things taking place on the site during development, I complained strongly to the lack of proper building methods, and the dangerous methods used in place, to both my senior manger, as well as the company owner, numerous times.Eventually I was told to feck off and clear out my desk that it was none of my business, and I was fired, and the engineer has signed off on it miraculously as he was never on site in 3 years. Dont get me started, its still the brown envelope scenario.
schmittel
Verified Username
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:15 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#3

Post by schmittel »

Haven't actually discussed it much with friends etc, but all I hear in media etc is sympathy and support for the householders redress. I suppose, like a lot of these things, those shouting the loudest can distort the picture. To change the narrative would require a politician or media commentator to stick their neck out, and that seems unlikely.

I feel much the same about mortgage arrears - essentially we are all subsidising a lot of people who cannot/will not pay their mortgages for whatever reason. Why? Largely because nobody has the balls to say this is nuts, somebody has to face up to the suffering, but no reason it should be the taxpayer.
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#4

Post by kadman »

I think that the taxpayer is going to have to step up and foot the bill for these people whether we like it or not. Its criminal what has happened to these familiies.

You might remember that old saying pre 2008 " Regulated by the Central Bank"....But there was clearly no regulation in play at the time, and nobody was held responsible for this. Current building regulation is exactly the same, there is no enforcement and regulation that should be there. If there was then how do we get apartment blocks built outside of the current fire safety compliance as has happened, and new school buildings being sub standard.

After all we paid out 200 billion for the banks without a whisper, and said nothing. I remember being on protests and the only male there. I would prefer to pay for my neighbours misfortune that was no fault of his, yes i would.
User avatar
Banshee Bones
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:30 am

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#5

Post by Banshee Bones »

Not to worry, Paddy shoulders such burdens without complaint so long as the lad next to him is being rode just as hard

And the politicians know it.
marhay70
Posts: 1226
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:18 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#6

Post by marhay70 »

Mountain wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:01 am It slightly puzzles me.

I recall outcry when we were asked to pay 1 billion for the victims of the child sex abuse scandals, who had been raped and abused and had their lives torn apart. We were appalled at the prospect of bailing out the Church even though it meant victims would be spared lengthy and expensive litigation.

But now it seems like we can't write the 3 billion cheque quickly enough for the victims of the mica scandal.

Surely the construction industry should be fixed with a good chunk of it. And engineers too. And even home owners may have to take a hit. Caveat Emptor must have some application.
Absolutely, while I have sympathy for the people who bought these homes and the situation they now find themselves in, I can't help asking "What's it to do with me"?
If I buy something from any manufacturer or retailer, I am paying for what is considered to be their competence in providing me with that product, if it doesn't, the law protects me for what is considered the appropriate time. Manufacturers' warranties often includes words like "against any substandard practices and materials in the manufacturing process". In these cases the manufacturer is responsible, either directly to the purchaser or indirectly, through the retailer. Either way,, the buck stops here, and if any injury or fatality occurs because of shoddy practices then the manufacturer is in deep shit.
Not so the building industry. How many times, especially during the Celtic Tiger, did we see reports of substandard homes and workplaces. The last figure I heard was somewhere in the region of 30,000 individual homes were affected and that was by no means exhaustive. This doesn't include homes that were built on flood plains, another bubble waiting to burst.
We have to ask, what is the reason for this . My answer is "corruption". The vast sums of money changing hands in the construction are a temptation to many. We have the infamous "Galway Tent" situation, which was in place from when I was a young man, the sticky fingers of FF got into every pie but the big developers and money men welcomed the advances because FF were pulling all the strings, signing all the contracts, signing off on the grant cheques and CPOs. Not that their opponents were far behind, they had their fingers in their own pies.
Now with the MICA and Pyrite scandals, FF and FG are trying to divert the attention away from their buddies in the Construction Industry in the same way they directed it away from their buddies in the Church when the child abuse and mother and baby scandals broke; and who is footing the bill for them? The Church? How much pressure is being put on the Church to live up to their agreements under the Redress scheme? Not a lot
So you see, FF and FG are the Government, they make the decisions and isn't it just a joy to their friends and accomplices among the developers and money men that they can say " don't worry guys, we'll get Sean and Mary citizen to pay for this and we'll string them along with the sob story that these are only ordinary men and women like them and sure they can't be asked to pay for this" Thet'll lap it up and won't question whether the fact you were buying the cheapest of materials and using the cheapest of labour and cutting evey regulation you could to the bone, was a factor. It'll be grand
User avatar
Scotty
Posts: 994
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:20 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#7

Post by Scotty »

I've read about 5000 homes are affected. At €3B that's €600k per house. What am I missing?


Anyway.... if all other avenues have been exhausted then the taxpayer should pay for redress. They don't get their mortgages wiped off though!!
490808
Posts: 1487
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:10 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#8

Post by 490808 »

Aren't they saying there is going to be a cap of €400k and arguing if the cap should be lower at €350k?

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mic ... 11871.html
Hairy-Joe
Posts: 1567
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:33 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#9

Post by Hairy-Joe »

I recall reading that the average home size in the country is about 1800sqft. The average home in Donegal is about 3000sqft. Also, they are looking for a complete new build and not salvaging any of the current fixtures and fittings. Also some are looking for storage for the furniture, renting a different house while theirs is being built, rebuilt to the latest energy ratings and for the taxpayer to pay for 100% of everything.

I think that the homeowners realised that the taxpayer was a far softer target rather than launching legal battles against the builders, suppliers, etc as there is a chance that they could loose the court battles and have to pay for the legal bills as well as everything else.

Sure if I bought a dodgy car, I have a battle with the garage even though the government set the standards for the car. Explain how this is different?
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#10

Post by kadman »

Hairy-Joe wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:18 pm I recall reading that the average home size in the country is about 1800sqft. The average home in Donegal is about 3000sqft. Also, they are looking for a complete new build and not salvaging any of the current fixtures and fittings. Also some are looking for storage for the furniture, renting a different house while theirs is being built, rebuilt to the latest energy ratings and for the taxpayer to pay for 100% of everything.

I think that the homeowners realised that the taxpayer was a far softer target rather than launching legal battles against the builders, suppliers, etc as there is a chance that they could loose the court battles and have to pay for the legal bills as well as everything else.

Sure if I bought a dodgy car, I have a battle with the garage even though the government set the standards for the car. Explain how this is different?
Its different because when you bought the car, you had no insurance on the purchase , as required by a bank for your mortgage.
I would see the insurance companies liable here, because they guarantee structural integrity of your building when you have a policy, thats what its for. At least that was the case, possibly they have managed to change it now.
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#11

Post by kadman »

And if its an insurance liability, then that might have far reaching percussions outside of Ireland.
marhay70
Posts: 1226
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:18 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#12

Post by marhay70 »

kadman wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:33 pm And if its an insurance liability, then that might have far reaching percussions outside of Ireland.
Too true Kadman, and every bank will require a survey of the property before signing off on a mortgage. With every step you are bringing another element of the Golden Circle into the equation.
Hairy-Joe
Posts: 1567
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:33 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#13

Post by Hairy-Joe »

kadman wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:31 pm Its different because when you bought the car, you had no insurance on the purchase , as required by a bank for your mortgage.
I would see the insurance companies liable here, because they guarantee structural integrity of your building when you have a policy, thats what its for. At least that was the case, possibly they have managed to change it now.
But you do have insurance on the car, legally mandatory (third party I will admit). I can see how the homeowners insurance should be on the hook as the homeowners insure for damage to their house. Again it's back to the government being easier to win against compared to the insurance companies.

Forgive me but wouldn't the sale of goods act apply also as the blocks were not fit for purpose. So go after the supplier.

I'm not trying to be awkward but I can't see how the government should be picking up the tab. The government didn't supply the blocks, didn't force the blocks on the homeowners. I can see this being a dangerous precedent as you could argue that if the government pays out for something a third party supplies that wasn't fit for purpose, anything else that anyone buys that's not fit for purpose the government should be paying for.

Edit. Don't insurance companies pay out when storms damage houses, walls collapse etc. I can't see how this is different. A bigger bill alright.
User avatar
Scotty
Posts: 994
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:20 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#14

Post by Scotty »

Defective materials and design and poor workmanship are not covered by house insurance. House insurance is also not mandatory. A life policy may be required for your mortgage but that's different.

The quarry in question who supplied the blocks is long gone.

Asked about HomeBond’s stance, the Department of Housing said: “In response to complaints and claims from homeowners about cracking in external walls, in estates, in Donegal and Mayo, it is understood that HomeBond relied on an exclusion clause for third party/supplier negligence.”

So really these people have no one left to turn to only the government. Most still have mortgages to pay and on houses they can't live in.
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#15

Post by kadman »

Its not about faulty blocks boys, its a bigger issue like I said earlier.If you let this roll further onto the insurance companies liability, then that could have a bigger global impact, and then more bailouts for paddy. Its cheaper to fork up the 3 billion now, than multi billions in another insurance company bailout, and god knows we have had them here before, and still have them.

They are called government levy and are on every insurance premium in Ireland. Remember terms like "too big to fail, ", thats why we will pay this one, and get another levy on our quotes.
Dont get me started on Homebond, i did on the other site, and got an instant ban for years, back about 15 years ago or less. HB was useless then, and it appears that their getout clause kicked in now.
marhay70
Posts: 1226
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:18 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#16

Post by marhay70 »

kadman wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:36 pm Its not about faulty blocks boys, its a bigger issue like I said earlier.If you let this roll further onto the insurance companies liability, then that could have a bigger global impact, and then more bailouts for paddy. Its cheaper to fork up the 3 billion now, than multi billions in another insurance company bailout, and god knows we have had them here before, and still have them.

They are called government levy and are on every insurance premium in Ireland. Remember terms like "too big to fail, ", thats why we will pay this one, and get another levy on our quotes.
Dont get me started on Homebond, i did on the other site, and got an instant ban for years, back about 15 years ago or less. HB was useless then, and it appears that their getout clause kicked in now.
Funny you should mention Homebond, which was a real buzz word and selling point when I was buying the house I'm in now. I remember flags flying at all the housing estates.
Now I had an issue with draughts in my house and I brought the issue to Homebond only to be told that the warranty "only covered structural defects in the build". It appears now that even that was being economical with the truth.
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#17

Post by kadman »

marhay70 wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:03 pm Funny you should mention Homebond, which was a real buzz word and selling point when I was buying the house I'm in now. I remember flags flying at all the housing estates.
Now I had an issue with draughts in my house and I brought the issue to Homebond only to be told that the warranty "only covered structural defects in the build". It appears now that even that was being economical with the truth.
The only guarantee you have, is that if you have a claim, you probably wont get paid. The whole construction industry at play in Ireland, between the schools not fit for purpose, despite being new buildings, and the fire cert debacle in Dublin apartments, house developments being signed off by proxy engineers who never see the sites or works, plus the fact that you wont be able to get an engineer to go against another engineer, makes the industry very close to criminals in some quarters.

If it was a properly regulated and enforced sector, then these things as well as the mica could not happen. And i know professionals that could not step up to the plate for fear of losing their jobs, and some that were sacked for stepping up.
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#18

Post by kadman »

And in case you think that purchasing these Donegal houses at the outset with a recommended survey at the request of your bank to qualify for the mortgage, then think again. The survey report will clearly absolve itself of any liability, as it will clearly state that the survey only pertains to " what is visually apparent".

That means that any hidden stuff was never a part of the survey. The fact that your proposed new home used defective materials means absolutely nothing on your survey, as its not visual. There is only one politician /TD that ever had any time to help people in this situation, and it wont surprise you to know he is not from FF,FG,PD,or any of the main parties involved with governence since the foundation of the state.
marhay70
Posts: 1226
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:18 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#19

Post by marhay70 »

kadman wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:06 pm And in case you think that purchasing these Donegal houses at the outset with a recommended survey at the request of your bank to qualify for the mortgage, then think again. The survey report will clearly absolve itself of any liability, as it will clearly state that the survey only pertains to " what is visually apparent".

That means that any hidden stuff was never a part of the survey. The fact that your proposed new home used defective materials means absolutely nothing on your survey, as its not visual. There is only one politician /TD that ever had any time to help people in this situation, and it wont surprise you to know he is not from FF,FG,PD,or any of the main parties involved with governance since the foundation of the state.
Basically this is what I was saying in an earlier post. Corruption. The building industry allowed, to a large extent, to self regulate, never a good idea. The Banks the Insurance industry, the Professions all scratching each others' backs, and in the middle of it all, the political elite, who have betrayed the trust of the electorate, over and over, whether by design or by sheer ineptness, since the inception of the State.
We will never really achieve what we hope for as a society unless we hold people accountable, and the place to start is with the politicians because we have decided that they are the legislators and as such, are charged with ensuring that everybody else is held accountable.
User avatar
Memento Mori
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:22 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#20

Post by Memento Mori »

Mountain wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:01 am It slightly puzzles me.

I recall outcry when we were asked to pay 1 billion for the victims of the child sex abuse scandals, who had been raped and abused and had their lives torn apart. We were appalled at the prospect of bailing out the Church even though it meant victims would be spared lengthy and expensive litigation.

But now it seems like we can't write the 3 billion cheque quickly enough for the victims of the mica scandal.

Surely the construction industry should be fixed with a good chunk of it. And engineers too. And even home owners may have to take a hit. Caveat Emptor must have some application.
For a long time only the Department of Agriculture acted as an insurer of last resort for their constituency. I see it has spread to other departments. That said I feel very sorry for the people involved, there must be some way to go after the quarry.
User avatar
Scotty
Posts: 994
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:20 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#21

Post by Scotty »

Memento Mori wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:08 pm there must be some way to go after the quarry.
90% of the blocks were made and supplied by Cassidy Builders whom are actually sill in business (but don't make blocks anymore). Their stance is that they complied with all regulations, had their own lab on site, and had everything independently verified. I mentioned on another thread here how ridiculous it is to allow manufactures declare their own products CE compliant, but hey, we'll learn the hard way.
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#22

Post by kadman »

Scotty wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:25 pm 90% of the blocks were made and supplied by Cassidy Builders whom are actually sill in business (but don't make blocks anymore). Their stance is that they complied with all regulations, had their own lab on site, and had everything independently verified. I mentioned on another thread here how ridiculous it is to allow manufactures declare their own products CE compliant, but hey, we'll learn the hard way.




Problem is we dont learn, and never will when It comes to regulation , and the enforcement of same, same old story, different day.
Presumably as a block manufacture they are CE marked and certified by the NSAI, but probably not continually assessed .
You might think this happens, it doesn't, its more often than not a visit, and a box ticking exercise , possibly without checks.
I've been present during some NSAI processes, and paper does not refuse ink.

Its all the more reason why the bill will be footed by the tax payer. And whistle blowers are not going to get support from governing gobshites that want these sort of things kept under wraps. There is a long list of similar construction fiascos, but no one gets called to answer.
JayZeus
Verified Username
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:53 am

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#23

Post by JayZeus »

How about lobbying the elected scum to apply a levy or tax on all corporate owners of what should be private residential housing, and use that to foot the bill?

Under no circumstances should the PAYE donkey have to carry this load. Along with all the other dumb crap they've to pay for today, and for many years into the future.

They pay enough already, to bank-roll bailing out the banks and the bond holders. Time now to let the body corporate bail out the PAYE workers to try to keep some balance in play.

It's never happen though. Eventually our children and grandchildren will end up saddled with it. How crooked is that? The bastards.
Kaiser
Verified Username
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:55 am

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#24

Post by Kaiser »

Mountain wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:18 am I don't know that it is. From pub talk and what I see online, a lot of people are wondering...why should we pay for someone's house in Donegal, whoever's fault it is it's certainly not ours. Now, none of this is to minimise the trauma of the families affected, the stress, the impact on family life, I think I'd take to drink if it happened me. But that still would not make the taxpayer responsible for picking up the tab.
It's simple really.. It's property.

We have an obsession with property in general and home ownership in particular - just look at all those home makeover shows on RTE and supplements in the paper.

The "family home" is sacred (but only if you can afford a mortgage on it - noone seems to care much for renters) and any adverse event is ALWAYS someone else's fault!

It was the same in the aftermath of the crash. Overextended yourself on the McMansion? Sure that was the banks throwing money at you, the ads telling you to get on the property ladder before it's too late, and the politicians! Better again, you don't have to worry about the mortgage anyway as repossessions were/are almost impossible anyway!

We are extremely immature when it comes to this issue
kadman
Verified Username
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: The Mica Redress Scheme

#25

Post by kadman »

Politicians are not here to make life easier for the serfs, its the lords who get the easy life.
You might think the magna carta was good for the serfs, that was just part of the illusion. Now get back to the grindwheel and keep pushing it, ...serf.
Post Reply