Scotty wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:33 pm
They're about as useful as a chocolate teapot. The stats are unverified reports from the general public. Not worth the paper they're written on.
Sure they are, in your world, because they show something which does not fit with your beliefs.
You can rest assured that governments around the world would not have such reporting systems on-going for many years unless they served a purpose, which is to provide an early warning signal of the number of adverse effects of a medication.
Surprisingly (for you) it actually works!
I think most people would accept their usefulness rather than your chocolate teapot analogy.
Now if you or anyone else wants to use the data as 'scientific', despite the report's own disclaimer urging you not to, then go right ahead.
You deftly skipped past my post above which had direct quotes from the websites of global adverse events data collection organisations set up by government departments to collect the reports for scientific purposes. Nice skipping
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
Isha, someone posted some data and on deeper analysis I was surprised to see the authors of the data had such a damning disclaimer on their own report. I commented that the data wasn't much use. That's all.
You've posted links to other alternative organisations that also collect data on Vaccine adverse effects but they're not relevant to my comments. I don't know who can add data to their stats or if the data is verified and I'm not going through them one by one to check.
Yet again, I've regretted posting in this thread. I won't make that mistake again.
PureIsle wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:47 am
Sure they are, in your world, because they show something which does not fit with your beliefs.
You can rest assured that governments around the world would not have such reporting systems on-going for many years unless they served a purpose, which is to provide an early warning signal of the number of adverse effects of a medication.
Surprisingly (for you) it actually works!
I think most people would accept their usefulness rather than your chocolate teapot analogy.
My belief is that the reporting system is no more than a system to alert scientists that further testing may be required.
So lots of reports of adverse outcomes would be used to trigger further investigation and gathering of verifiable data, but the actual individual reports themselves would be ignored.
Singapore has 6 million people. Vastly more densely populated than us of course. But just mentioning population numbers to put case numbers in relation to ours - they have about 1500 daily at the moment. And have announced new 1 month lockdown from Monday. Work from home, primary school from home, no more than 2 fully vaccinated people to congregate.
Norway reclassifies Covid-19: No more dangerous than ordinary flu
The Norwegian Institute of Public Health FHI has made the remarkable, but statistically supported, decision to classify Covid-19 as a respiratory disease that is as dangerous as the common flu. It is clarified that the pandemic is not over, but that it has entered a new phase where Covid-19 is now equated with a common respiratory disease, such as a flu or respiratory infection. This is done, among other things, due to the mutations that the Coronavirus has undergone, which makes it less dangerous, together with increased natural and vaccination-induced immunity that has been achieved in Norwegian society.
Regardless where I read it, I hope I will find confirmation of this.
Unfortunately main stream media do not seem to be interested in such news, so it could mean a bit of a search.
isha wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:58 pm
Singapore has 6 million people. Vastly more densely populated than us of course. But just mentioning population numbers to put case numbers in relation to ours - they have about 1500 daily at the moment. And have announced new 1 month lockdown from Monday.
Their numbers have consistently risen over the last while. Ours haven't.
One third of ALL covid deaths in Singapore have occurred in the last month (Still very low at just 70 deaths).
Yesterday a neighbour with whom I have socialised for 15 years, and who I have given a hand whenever possible, asked my husband (vaccinated) straight out if he thought his wife ie me (unvaccinated) should receive medical attention for ANY issue, because he (my neighbour) thinks I am no longer entitled to it.
If I ever wondered how could neighbours possibly ever give up lists to secret police or ignore pograms and sealed cattle cars on trains to who knows where, the veil is being torn down.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
isha wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:49 pm
Yesterday a neighbour with whom I have socialised for 15 years, and who I have given a hand whenever possible, asked my husband (vaccinated) straight out if he thought his wife ie me (unvaccinated) should receive medical attention for ANY issue, because he (my neighbour) thinks I am no longer entitled to it.
If I ever wondered how could neighbours possibly ever give up lists to secret police or ignore pograms and sealed cattle cars on trains to who knows where, the veil is being torn down.
I find this thoroughly disgusting.
I have no definite thought on what my reaction might be, but I suspect it would not be very nice or maybe even acceptable in polite society.
There is no excuse possible for wishing harm on another ...... even ignorance is not an excuse.
PureIsle wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:07 pm
I find this thoroughly disgusting.
I have no definite thought on what my reaction might be, but I suspect it would not be very nice or maybe even acceptable in polite society.
There is no excuse possible for wishing harm on another ...... even ignorance is not an excuse.
It has disturbed more than I care to admit, could not sleep well last night. I was incandescent when first told, full on Durga style, but my husband told me to be merciful and so I am past the fury stage now, and my attitude is more sorrow than anger. Fortunately, for that cnut of a neighbour
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
isha wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:32 pm
It has disturbed more than I care to admit, could not sleep well last night. I was incandescent when first told, full on Durga style, but my husband told me to be merciful and so I am past the fury stage now, and my attitude is more sorrow than anger. Fortunately, for that cnut of a neighbour
I've seen an argument in the media a lot recently along the lines of 'In the case of a lack of resources; should you prioritize healthcare for the vaccinated over the unvaccinated' relating to triage. More of an actual argument, but the answer should remain no. We treat people based on how well we expect them to do, that is all. It's a feature of the system; not a bug.
Your neighbour seems to have gone full blown nazi with their 'entitlement to healthcare'. This pandemic has helped bring out the inner nazi in a lot of people, to our detriment of course.
This is New York Governor Hochul a few days ago addressing a mega-church, calling for the people to be her Apostles and praising the Lord etc.
Last night she orchestrated the firing of 70,000 healthcare workers in NY, who worked all through the pandemic on the coal face, but who do not consent to these injections. Regulations were also passed that staff thus fired are not entitled to unemployment assistance. Praise the Lord. In Jesus's name. God's work is done.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
Yes I had seen that video previously, and honestly I am not very surprised, as from my perspective the 'vax everyone' followers have all the hallmarks of being part of some religious cult, with little reasoning behind their beliefs but lots of faith in something.
I have the same reaction to 'anti-vaxxers' trying to persuade me not to take the jab.
I don't care what people believe, that is their business, except when it impinges on my life/person/belief.
It is when some people attempt to inflict their beliefs on others that it is time to call it for what it is.
That's just insane,these are some of the same people who always say your body your choice.
Now its the exact opposite, surely this is against your human rights?
It's not at all insane in my opinion and I lol'd at the notion of it being against you're human rights. If they pose a risk to patients AND/OR if patients are going to pose a risk to staff, then healthcare staff should be vaccinated. I'm including the flu vaccine too. The same should go for any retail/service staff that may pose a risk to customers/public. If they refuse, then find another job. New York is by no means the only place to impose this and there is an ever growing list of US companies introducing it.
You know vaccinees can have as high a viral load as non vax but feel quite well, and thus be out and about being superspreaders. How is that for risk? Not to mention acquired vaccine abs that put narrow pressure solely on the infectious part of virus ie spike protein create the perfect scenario for evolution of more infectious variants mutating to avoid that narrowly directed ummune pressure thus in the longer term making herd immunity impossible.
Anyway yiz can all do what ye want, I will stay well back in the hills
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
isha wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:37 am
You know vaccinees can have as high a viral load as non vax but feel quite well, and thus be out and about being superspreaders.
Yes I do. Not exactly the environment you want to be sending 70,000 unvaccinated people into every day is it?
Scotty wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:50 pm
Yes I do. Not exactly the environment you want to be sending 70,000 unvaccinated people into every day is it?
They are not being 'sent' ...... they are being stopped from working.
They obviously do not pose any greater risk to other staff or patients than vaccinated staff, so why prevent them from working?
Their personal medical decisions should not be dictated by others.
Scotty wrote: ↑Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:50 pm
Yes I do. Not exactly the environment you want to be sending 70,000 unvaccinated people into every day is it?
I don't think this is the gotcha you imagine, it in fact invalidates all authoritarian Covid control measures based around segregation by admitting casually that they do not work. This mass firing is not about compassion for people who have gone to work on the Covid front line day in day out for 20 months. At all.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
Don't know if this was linked already. Preprint in Lancet from August. Study done in hospital in Vietnam. Vaccinees carry 251 times viral load.
Findings: Between 11th–25th June 2021 (week 7–8 after dose 2), 69 healthcare workers were tested positive for SARS-CoV-2. 62 participated in the clinical study. 49 were (pre)symptomatic with one requiring oxygen supplementation. All recovered uneventfully. 23 complete-genome sequences were obtained. They all belonged to the Delta variant, and were phylogenetically distinct from the contemporary Delta variant sequences obtained from community transmission cases, suggestive of ongoing transmission between the workers. Viral loads of breakthrough Delta variant infection cases were 251 times higher than those of cases infected with old strains detected between March-April 2020. Time from diagnosis to PCR negative was 8–33 days (median: 21). Neutralizing antibody levels after vaccination and at diagnosis of the cases were lower than those in the matched uninfected controls. There was no correlation between vaccine-induced neutralizing antibody levels and viral loads or the development of symptoms.
Interpretation: Breakthrough Delta variant infections are associated with high viral loads, prolonged PCR positivity, and low levels of vaccine-induced neutralizing antibodies, explaining the transmission between the vaccinated people. Physical distancing measures remain critical to reduce SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant transmission.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
Scotty wrote: ↑Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:40 amFact Check: Study did not find vaccinated healthcare workers carry 251 times the viral load of those who were unvaccinated...
Read more carefully Scotty. I DID NOT say carries 251 times the level of non vaccinated. I read the paper and am fully aware it compared Delta to level of virus loas in early 2020 wild type virus.
Regardless it is astonishing that viral levels of Delta are so incredibly high in vaccinees and often in presymptomatic and asymptomatic people. It completely undermines all supposed rationale for passport type measures etc. Which are revealed to be merely authoritarian devices, rather than epidemiologically useful.
Thinking out loud, and trying to be occasionally less wrong...
and so I am past the fury stage now, and my attitude is more sorrow than anger. Fortunately, for that cnut of a neighbour 
