Israel and Palestine

[StarryPlough01]

There is no 680,000 dead. There is no 136,000 violent deaths. There is 68,000 dead, that includes violent and non violent as reported by Hamas. Do you ever get tired of posting this crap? Why would you quote a study that was uses projections and false assumptions?

The speed at which this false claim has taken off shows the danger of mixing shoddy analysis with social media users who get all their information from brief posts and flashy images.

Wherever you are getting your news they are lying to you. They are manipulating you and abusing you with lies. You should take this moment to take a step back and realize which of your influencers are abusing you. My guess is the Eirigi website. Am I right?

https://honestreporting.com/680000-dead ... -analysis/

knownunknown,
I actually set out the updated Gaza Ministry of Health statistics (Source: Brown University pdf) in the same post as the video of Francesca Albanese, Special Rapporteur for the Palestinian territories.


I, (StarryPlough01) wrote (verbatim / unedited) on Sun Oct 12, 2025 10:30 am ... copied and pasted here for your convenience:


ANF, Francesca Albanese, the Special Rapporteur for the Palestinian territories said:

"In fact, we shall start thinking of 680,000 because this is the number that some scholars and scientists claim being the real death toll in Gaza." [/i] (over 75 percent are women and children)


“As of 3 October 2025, according to the Gaza Ministry of Health, 67,075 people have been killed and 169,430 people have been injured ....”

“In the West Bank, 1,048 people have been killed and 10,320 people injured from 7 October 2023 to 3 October 2025 by direct violence.4 Altogether, the number of residents of Gaza and the West Bank killed and injured in this period is 68,123 people directly killed and 179,750 people injured.”
https://costsofwar.watson.brown.edu/sit ... r-2025.pdf




‘Possibly 680,000 Dead in Gaza - Francesca Albanese - Many scholars disputing official totals’

Sep 17, 2025 #unhrc #unitednations #FrancescaAlbanese

Excerpt
“It's a painful honour to be here at such a critical moment for Gaza and for the Palestinians as a whole. 710. This is the number of days of absolute horror that the people in Gaza have endured. 65,000 is the number of Palestinians as certain killed, including over which 75% are women and children. In fact, we shall start thinking of 680,000 because this is the number that some scholars and scientists claim being the real death toll in Gaza. And it would be hard to to be able to prove or disprove this number, especially if investigators and others remained banned from entering the occupied Palestinian territory, and particularly the Gaza Strip. But if this number is confirmed, 380,000 of these are infants under five. 1,581, this is the number of health workers killed in Gaza. 252 is the number of the journalists, your colleagues, killed in Gaza. And 346 is the number of UN staff killed in Gaza. 10,000 Palestinians have been detained mostly arbitrarily by an unlawful occupation which has been starving, torturing and even raping inmates, including doctors and patients. 75 is the numbers of detainees who have been reported killed in Israeli custody just in the last 710 days."


^^^ knownunknown, The two academics are talking about ”indirect deaths”... making the point that noone KNOWS the real death toll in Gaza. However, I know after two years, you still have comprehension problems understanding the war crime of genocide !! In future, please read more carefully.

And, I do appreciate your highlighting of “indirect deaths” ... as special rapporteur Francesca Albanese asked us all to consider.

[ceannairceach]

As far as I know, all the women hostages were released in previous batches.

You are completely wrong.

[knownunknown]

knownunknown,
I actually set out the updated Gaza Ministry of Health statistics (Source: Brown University pdf) in the same post as the video of Francesca Albanese, Special Rapporteur for the Palestinian territories.

^^^ knownunknown, The two academics are talking about ”indirect deaths”... making the point that noone KNOWS the real death toll in Gaza. However, I know after two years, you still have comprehension problems understanding the war crime of genocide !! In future, please read more carefully.

And, I do appreciate your highlighting of “indirect deaths” ... as special rapporteur Francesca Albanese asked us all to consider.

Nobody knows exactly, sure, but the number might be 68,000; maybe a bit less or maybe a bit more. It’s not a factor of 10x more. There is no where to hide bodies on this scale. The report she cites this 680,000 figure from is an Australian magazine called Arena. It’s a far left socialist type of thing. It’s not peer reviewed scientific research yet she mentions academia.

It has no basis in reality and as special rapporteur for Palestine she has only sullied her name further with this crap.

It has been debunked, you’d do well not to listen to whoever is feeding you this rubbish. You’ll notice the “scholars” she cited are the authors of this article.

She also said this: But if this number is confirmed, 380,000 of these are infants under five.
There aren’t that many infants under five in Gaza, it’s an impossibility.

She even admits that she was being deliberately provocative using that number, yet we have useful idiots stilll spreading this around as fact from the UN.






https://arena.org.au/politics-of-counting-gazas-dead/
https://honestreporting.com/680000-dead ... -analysis/
https://unwatch.org/francesca-albaneses ... mber-2025/

[p.ie man]

Congressman Thomas Massie says Miriam Adelson funded attack adverts against him in his district in the USA. He notes Trump saying she loves Israel more than the USA.

https://x.com/RepThomasMassie/status/19 ... 6450216027

[NewBroom]

I read that some Israelis are unhappy about the rate of return of bodies of their dead citizens. This indicates that they have been shielded to a large extent in their domestic media from the utter devastation & demolition that their so called defence forces have perpetrated. At best they might get back a few body parts in places. Reality will seep in along with a realisation that they are firmly a pariah state for many, many years to come.

[knownunknown]

I read that some Israelis are unhappy about the rate of return of bodies of their dead citizens. This indicates that they have been shielded to a large extent in their domestic media from the utter devastation & demolition that their so called defence forces have perpetrated. At best they might get back a few body parts in places. Reality will seep in along with a realisation that they are firmly a pariah state for many, many years to come.

The agreement was that Hamas would return all the hostages dead and alive within 72 hours of knesset approval. Hamas broke that arrangement. Of course Israel are going to be unhappy about that. Israel would be perfectly entitled to restart the war because of this.

Instead of deploying the military again they are trying to achieve their goal of the return of the dead hostages through diplomacy.

Attacking israel because Hamas broke the ceasefire arrangement is deranged, deluded and has no basis in reality.

The Israeli Hostages Families Forum has called for the suspension of the ceasefire agreement, saying "Hamas's violation of the agreement must be met with a very serious response".

"We demand all 28 hostages back. We will not give up on anyone, until the last hostage is returned," it added.

Under US President Donald Trump's ceasefire agreement, all the hostages - including the deceased - should be returned as part of the first phase of the ceasefire.

[knownunknown]

Congressman Thomas Massie says Miriam Adelson funded attack adverts against him in his district in the USA. He notes Trump saying she loves Israel more than the USA.

https://x.com/RepThomasMassie/status/19 ... 6450216027

Loves Israel and yet is able to call them out when they break any deal involving him. Amazing display of character. I see you have a habit of posting things in triplets so I’ll have this link again ready the next time you post the above.

[knownunknown]

It seems, in retaliation for not returning the hostages that the Rafah crossing will remain closed at least for now. Better than restarting the war at least. Let’s hope Hamas don’t escalate this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... ws-updates

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

Again with the lies. The hostages released by Hamas were innocent civilians taken hostage and held for two years in dark tunnels, while they were raped, starved and tortured.

This false equivalence is pathetic and shows either your lack of understanding for basic words or your wish muddy the waters everytime something involving Israel happens, the latter of which you have form for. Abhorrent and disgusting. You have no shame.

Among those prisoners released by Israel were people that committed acts of terror not only against Israelis but also other Palestinians they viewed as collaborators. Many were pending trial or had not yet been sentenced. Make no mistake, they were all prisoners and legal ones. Were there innocent ones among them? Probably of course, the judiciary was swamped in Israel, they are in a war and their main concern wasn’t court cases for terrorists while they were in the midst of a war. Were they going arresting anybody they wanted? Of course not, their prisons have only so much space. It’s much more efficient to just kill them and be done with it, especially as you allege that a genocide was taking place.

In a former deal a few years back 2,000 prisoners were released in exchange for one Israeli soldier. Among them was Yahya Sinwar, prosecuted for several lifetimes in prison for killling Israelis and Palestinians alike. He would go onto become the leader of Hamas and the orchestrator of the Oct.7 attacks.

This list is not extensive but here’s some more.

• Raed Sheikh Fatah; former Palestinian police officer. Sentenced in 2000 to multiple life terms for killing two Israeli soldiers in the West Bank.
  AP News
• Mahmoud Issa Hamas commander Imprisoned since 1993, life sentence, convicted of kidnapping and killing a 29-year-old Israeli border police officer.
  AP News
• Mohammed and Abdel Jawad Shamasneh (the Shamasneh brothers)—Convicted in 1993 (multiple life terms) for a stabbing attack killing Israeli hitchhikers; bodies found in a river in Jerusalem in 1990.
  AP News
• Iyad Fatafta Fatah member One of those convicted for murder in stabbing American tourist Kristine Luken, and another hiker who survived.
  AP News
• Imad Qawasmeh Hamas Been serving 16 life sentences since 2004 for involvement in a suicide bombing that killed 16 Israelis.
• Iyad Abu al-Rub Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Accused/planning/plotting several fatal attacks, including suicide bombings (Sadmot Meholah 2003, Tel Aviv 2004, Hadera 2005).
  Sloboden Pecat
• Mohammed Zakarneh Fatah Responsible for a 2009 attack that killed a taxi driver.
  Sloboden Pecat
• Mohammed Abu al-Rub—Committed a 2017 stabbing attack that killed Reuven Smerling.
  Sloboden Pecat

Yeah what proportion of the Palestinian prisoners were long-term lifers for genuine crimes, a tiny proportion. For example, perhaps for working with Hamas, perhaps for political reasons, 154 of the Palestinian prisoners released were immediately ordered to be sent into exile.

1700 of the Palestinians prisoners released were simply detained without charge since October 7th, i.e interned without a fair trial. Furthermore, what is the need to keep on interning 500 or more Palestinian children in Israeli dungeons for innocuous crimes or trumped up charges? But then you remember how many Palestinian children and even toddlers have been deliberately targeted and shot by the world's most moral army for over a decade in Gaza now. Then you realise the Zionist murder machine and the indoctrination levels in Israeli society are out of control, when shooting, maiming and torturing children is tolerated or ignored by the majority of ordinary people in Israel or even promoted by Zionist psychopaths like Daniella Weiss. This was going on long before this Gaza war, such as the 1,000 or so Palestinian children deliberately shot or wounded by live ammunition during the 2018 Gaza border protests.

Where do you even begin to try and reform a society when things like that have been accepted as almost 'normal' everyday things by its members? The butchery and savagery of the Gaza genocide had plenty of precedents, but sadly the majority of Israelis never shouted stop before the insanity really set in.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%8 ... r_protests

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-p ... s-escalate

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/ga ... d-strained

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

I’m going to go with “because they’re allowed” ….

Any more hot takes there ceannairceach? Some people are masters of insinuating something, but never proving anything. This tactic, otherwise known as "talking out their hole", or leaving a big steamy log unflushed in the jacks and letting the smell waft to everyone else, is how I'd describe this method of character assassination.

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

Obviously it was propaganda, “by further attacking us, the hostages are digging their own graves kind of thing” still not a very nice experience.

It seems that poor man was used as propaganda a lot including by Greta Thurnberg and her fabulous flotilla. He’s pictured in the bottom right.

All lives are equal eh, isn't that right knownunknown? So, this poor chap above has a right to exist and a life outside a Hamas dungeon, just like all the thousands of Palestinian innocents interned in Israeli dungeons should. Isn't that a simple concept to accept or are you trying to dehumanise all those innocent Palestinians, including some 500 children, locked in shameful brutal conditions in Israeli dungeons? What say you dear knownunknown?

[knownunknown]

All lives are equal eh, isn't that right knownunknown? So, this poor chap above has a right to exist and a life outside a Hamas dungeon, just like all the thousands of Palestinian innocents interned in Israeli dungeons should. Isn't that a simple concept to accept or are you trying to dehumanise all those innocent Palestinians, including some 500 children, locked in shameful brutal conditions in Israeli dungeons? What say you dear knownunknown?

How did the Palestinian prisoners look when they were released? As gaunt as this innocent man? Were they made shoot a video of themselves digging their own graves? Were there videos released of them being starved for days on end?

We either care about starvation or we don’t, why did Greta delete that photo?

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

The agreement was that Hamas would return all the hostages dead and alive within 72 hours of knesset approval. Hamas broke that arrangement. Of course Israel are going to be unhappy about that. Israel would be perfectly entitled to restart the war because of this.

Instead of deploying the military again they are trying to achieve their goal of the return of the dead hostages through diplomacy.

Attacking israel because Hamas broke the ceasefire arrangement is deranged, deluded and has no basis in reality.

The Israeli Hostages Families Forum has called for the suspension of the ceasefire agreement, saying "Hamas's violation of the agreement must be met with a very serious response".

"We demand all 28 hostages back. We will not give up on anyone, until the last hostage is returned," it added.

Under US President Donald Trump's ceasefire agreement, all the hostages - including the deceased - should be returned as part of the first phase of the ceasefire.

Talk about nitpicking. Is this the start of the Hasbara narrative back to open up the Gazan meat grinder again? Very hard to gauge as politics.ie man says above, whose alive and whose dead of the Israeli hostages when your own army pounded the living bejaysus out of Gaza for an extra 6 months after the first ceasefire was breached by Israel.

They also would want to be asking some very difficult questions to Uncle Bibi and his cadre of Zionist fanatics in the Israeli government and military as to why several hundred of the Israeli hostages were killed pretty rapidly under the Hannibal directive in the immediate days and weeks of utter carnage following October 7th. Hamas took the hostages, but 'Hannibal' probably finished the job in many cases.

The IDF and air force rained stuff in on top of Gaza like it was going out of fashion. Some estimate as much as a hundred thousand tonnes worth of explosives were dropped over the past 2 years on Gaza and I'm sorry to say for those poor Israeli families, they're naive if they expected that such a policy would see their deceased relatives and loved ones returned intact. Many are probably buried under the estimated 60 million tons of rubble in Gaza and will likely never be identified or found. War is a cruel business. Although, genocide and mass murder is even crueler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_b ... Gaza_Strip

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/is ... ce/3561614

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/yoav-ga ... ck-7663931

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/defen ... cle-844008

[NewBroom]

The agreement was that Hamas would return all the hostages dead and alive within 72 hours of knesset approval. Hamas broke that arrangement. Of course Israel are going to be unhappy about that. Israel would be perfectly entitled to restart the war because of this.

In this case so, I'm sure you might agree that Hamas should let the Israeli families of the deceased and relatives in, so that they can dig around in the rubble with their hands and shovels. If you liberally drop high explosives, there are consequences.

[knownunknown]

In this case so, I'm sure you might agree that Hamas should let the Israeli families of the deceased and relatives in, so that they can dig around in the rubble with their hands and shovels. If you liberally drop high explosives, there are consequences.

Whatever about what Hamas should do, they agreed to something and now they aren’t doing it.
It’s just more proof that anything Hamas says should not be automatically believed.

Maybe if they spent their time looking instead of indulging in public executions. They do love a bit of killing though, as they are a death cult.
Hamas are sending a message here, not to the Israelis but to the poor innocent civilians of Palestine.


Hamas carries out public executions — just hours after signing peace treaty with Israel

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

How did the Palestinian prisoners look when they were released? As gaunt as this innocent man? Were they made shoot a video of themselves digging their own graves? Were there videos released of them being starved for days on end?

We either care about starvation or we don’t, why did Greta delete that photo?

Look around Gaza the past two years or the past decade even. Food was never abundant in Gaza thanks to the Zionist government's sick calorie control policies. The GHF did the absolute bare minimum to try and prevent famine being declared by international aid organisations and it failed and over a third of the Gazan population were in famine conditions and the rest in conditions of malnourishment or severe hardship and at least 450 Palestinians were declared to have died of famine in Gaza since May.

So, you're telling me the hostages starved. Yeah everyone was in starvation mode in Gaza, thanks to Israeli government's policies deliberately using food as a psychological tool to try and ethnically cleanse and eject the Palestinian population there. The hostages did go hungry no doubt. So did hundred of thousands of Gazans. What do you expect would happen when food supplies were cut off indiscriminately, going against every principle of an occupying power's obligations during a conflict, which include having to feed a captive population. The captive population included their own citizens taken hostage by Hamas.

The 20 remaining Israeli hostages still survived at least unlike the 150+ Palestinian children and babies who died for want of food or baby formula since GHF was setup. No human being, Israeli or Palestinian should be starving to death in 2025, but that's what's been allowed to happen by genocidal Zionist maniacs using every dirty tool of depopulation available to them. The Israeli hostages could have been released 6 months ago. Netyenyahoo and the other fanatics thought it was best to do otherwise and keep the suffering going. Questions have to be asked in Israel as to what was the point of such a criminal policy being implemented in the first place when they knew it would likely impact their own kidnapped citizens. Finally, reports are emerging too from the released Palestinian prisoners that they were treated with utter brutality and even starved in the land of plenty. Seems like it wasn't just Hamas that could be accused of starving prisoners.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/ga ... on/3704215

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckg4p90z1kxo.amp

[knownunknown]

Look around Gaza the past two years or the past decade even. Food was never abundant in Gaza thanks to the Zionist government's sick calorie control policies. The GHF did the absolute bare minimum to try and prevent famine being declared by international aid organisations and it failed and over a third of the Gazan population were in famine conditions and the rest in conditions of malnourishment or severe hardship and at least 450 Palestinians were declared to have died of famine in Gaza since May.

So, you're telling me the hostages starved. Yeah everyone was in starvation mode in Gaza, thanks to Israeli government's policies deliberately using food as a psychological tool to try and ethnically cleanse and eject the Palestinian population there. The hostages did go hungry no doubt. So did hundred of thousands of Gazans. What do you expect would happen when food supplies were cut off indiscriminately, going against every principle of an occupying power's obligations during a conflict, which include having to feed a captive population. The captive population included their own citizens taken hostage by Hamas.

The 20 remaining Israeli hostages still survived at least unlike the 150+ Palestinian children and babies who died for want of food or baby formula since GHF was setup. No human being, Israeli or Palestinian should be starving to death in 2025, but that's what's been allowed to happen by genocidal Zionist maniacs using every dirty tool of depopulation available to them.

I see that you’re arguing that because the hostages were kept in Gaza, there wasn’t food there to feed them like the abundance that could be found for the Palestinian prionsers in Israeli prisons.

The reality is though Hamas had the first offerings of everything there, a un report said only 7% of aid delivery was reaching its intended targets. Hamas had the food, flaunted it on social media and still starved the hostages. What do you think about that? Did you see all the pictures of the obese Hamas members? You want me to show you?

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

In this case so, I'm sure you might agree that Hamas should let the Israeli families of the deceased and relatives in, so that they can dig around in the rubble with their hands and shovels. If you liberally drop high explosives, there are consequences.

Exactly, hence why now it has been estimated it could be 2050 or even 2060 before all the rubble and unexploded ordinance is cleared in Gaza. Trump is there waxing on and fantasising about building casinos and beach resorts in Gaza soon. Such suggestions are like Hitler moving imaginary armies around Berlin when the Red Army were less than 10km from his bunker.

Aside from the unbelievably poor taste of even suggesting to build such glass towers of capitalist decadence on top of a mass grave, in practical and logistical terms it's pure fantasy to expect that anything of note will be built in Gaza within the next decade or two while that cleanup is ongoing. No holiday maker will want to go gambling with their life holidaying in the middle of one the world's biggest minefields, nevermind gambling their own money there.

The Vietnam War ended 50 years ago and they still estimate 20% of the country's landmass is contaminated by some form of unexploded ordinance and many Vietnamese are still being killed or maimed every year when they disturb those devices while farming or whatever. Trump even cut the amount of funding to the bomb disposal squads in Vietnam last May. Not a good sign for the future of the bomb disposal program that's yet to start in Gaza when the orange turnip who evaded the draft with his 'bone spurs' can't be arsed cleaning up the Yank's mess there.

https://theconversation.com/trump-is-fr ... ded-255167

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pent ... m-vietnam/

[AnFearRéabhlóideach]

I see that you’re arguing that because the hostages were kept in Gaza, there wasn’t food there to feed them like the abundance that could be found for the Palestinian prionsers in Israeli prisons.

The reality is though Hamas had the first offerings of everything there, a un report said only 7% of aid delivery was reaching its intended targets. Hamas had the food, flaunted it on social media and still starved the hostages. What do you think about that? Did you see all the pictures of the obese Hamas members? You want me to show you?

Oh lovely, I thought I'd seen the last of that type of Hasbara slop. Still doing the rounds though I suppose. The Israeli military intelligence wing and Mossad paid for it so someone better use it. Nearly every mainstream media source said the fibs told to set up GHF, that Hamas was diverting or siphoning off aid on a large scale, was just that, a big massive whopper of a lie. Anyway keep that Hasbara leftover slop coming. Cold and stale. It's no longer hot and fresh anymore dear knownunknown.

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east ... port-shows

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c74ne108e4vo.amp

https://www.972mag.com/israeli-tv-hasbara-media-gaza/

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... ef44060000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_8200

[knownunknown]

No one cares about Hamas executing innocent Palestinians in the streets, no? We only care about dead Palestinians when it’s the Israelis doing it, that’s it, right?

Pro tip; when a genocide happens and ends the first thing the victims do is not to kill each other. That’s what happens generally after a war where different factions disagreed.

[knownunknown]

Oh lovely, I thought I'd seen the last of that type of Hasbara slop. Still doing the rounds though I suppose. The Israeli military intelligence wing and Mossad paid for it so someone better use it. Nearly every mainstream media source said the fibs told to set up GHF, that Hamas was diverting or siphoning off aid on a large scale, was just that, a big massive whopper of a lie. Anyway keep that Hasbara leftover slop coming. Cold and stale. It's no longer hot and fresh anymore dear knownunknown.

Hamas film a video of themselves, flaunting the food they stole from the UN and your rebuttal is “hasbara slop”.

The intellectual dishonesty required here is off the scale. Hamas starved the hostages deliberately because they are evil cunts. That’s what happened. If they didn’t have enough food for them they could have returned them or not taken them in the first place instead of continually holding them while they starved further. Many died in captivity.

Give your head a wobble.

[knownunknown]

“A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens, but by how it treats its criminals." — Fyodor Dostoevsky

[StarryPlough01]

Exactly, hence why now it has been estimated it could be 2050 or even 2060 before all the rubble and unexploded ordinance is cleared in Gaza. Trump is there waxing on and fantasising about building casinos and beach resorts in Gaza soon. Such suggestions are like Hitler moving imaginary armies around Berlin when the Red Army were less than 10km from his bunker.

Aside from the unbelievably poor taste of even suggesting to build such glass towers of capitalist decadence on top of a mass grave, in practical and logistical terms it's pure fantasy to expect that anything of note will be built in Gaza within the next decade or two while that cleanup is ongoing. No holiday maker will want to go gambling with their life holidaying in the middle of one the world's biggest minefields, nevermind gambling their own money there.

The Vietnam War ended 50 years ago and they still estimate 20% of the country's landmass is contaminated by some form of unexploded ordinance and many Vietnamese are still being killed or maimed every year when they disturb those devices while farming or whatever. Trump even cut the amount of funding to the bomb disposal squads in Vietnam last May. Not a good sign for the future of the bomb disposal program that's yet to start in Gaza when the orange turnip who evaded the draft with his 'bone spurs' can't be arsed cleaning up the Yank's mess there.

https://theconversation.com/trump-is-fr ... ded-255167

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pent ... m-vietnam/

ANF, I wouldn’t spend time replying to manipulative users on social media. For example, no rational person would agree that Hamas can summarily execute Palestinians in the street - without a fair trial... (no legal representation, right to question witnesses / accusers, etc).

Download WELCOME TO HELL August 2024 Full Report & Summary Here:
Welcome to Hell: The Israeli Prison System as a Network of Torture Camps [EN/AR/HE]
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-p ... enarhe

I first came across your posts during the GE2020, and was impressed with your restrained contributions to dissenting viewpoints. I noted before registering here on Gubu.ie, that the trolls will ignore your inconvenient truths, and try to control the narrative by usual deflecting tactics (trying to create doubt, etc). You do have a great intellect.

End of

[StarryPlough01]

Starry: I think this is an important debate with Inside Story’s senior journalist Nick Clark. It was well worth my time listening to all 27 minutes just now. It covers my concerns... I’ve selected extracts.




Inside Story ‘How will Donald Trump enforce his plan for Gaza?’

Oct 15, 2025 #DonaldTrump #Egypt #TrumpMiddleEastTrip
"US President Donald Trump says his Gaza ceasefire deal will bring peace to the Middle East. Some 20 world leaders, including Trump, signed the agreement at a special summit in Egypt on Monday. The deal outlines the steps both Hamas and Israel must take to maintain the ceasefire and end the war. But it doesn't quite address the bigger question of what happens in Gaza beyond the next few months? What about Israel's larger occupation? and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state? How will Trump's plan address these important issues?

Presenter: Nick Clark
Guests: Ori Goldberg - Political commentator.
Phyllis Bennis - Fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies and Author of ‘Understanding Palestine and Israel’.
Muhammad Shehada, Political analyst and Visiting Fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations.

Scroll to: 8:00 / 27:35

GUEST: Phyllis Bennis - Fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies and Author of ‘Understanding Palestine and Israel’ speaking here ~~~

THE 20 POINT ‘PEACE’ PLAN
Phyllis Bennis: .... “I think we have to be clear about what has been signed and what has not. What was signed by the parties that were actually doing the fighting was a ceasefire, a prisoner exchange and maybe something about the resumption of humanitarian aid, although that's a big question.

This was not a peace deal. This is not a new era that we are coming into. This does not end the Israeli occupation, the siege, the control by Israel of all of Gaza, of who goes in and out, what goes in and out, control of the airspace, control of the water, all of those things.

The only reference to a so-called Palestinian state was a horizon towards it, and an acknowledgement that it is an aspiration of Palestinians. That's a far cry from saying there will be such a thing. And crucially, it does not stop the provision of weapons. And I think that that's the critical factor here. ....

What is relevant is whether or not the US will continue to send unlimited military support to Israel to enable another version of the genocide to continue.

PRESENTER Nick Clark: “Well, there's no sign of that stopping, is there?

Phyllis Bennis: "If, they're not prepared to cut it, then this doesn't matter, whatever they say.

PRESENTER Nick Clark: “ Right. Right. But there's no sign of that, Phyllis, stopping, is there?

Phyllis Bennis speaking: “No. No, there's not. And this has been the problem all along. We knew throughout the years of the Biden presidency, and certainly with Trump until now. All he had to do, all either one of them had to do , was say, "No more weapons. That's it. You stop." And it would have stopped. The world knew that, but they were not prepared to do that.

Whether these new words and, you know, the stuff about a 3,000 year whatever is going to have any different impact, I think is very doubtful.

We have a process here where Palestinians were simply excluded from having any actual role. We don't even know what's in the final agreement that was signed not by Israel and Palestine, but by four other countries.

We don't know if it includes anything about arms. We don't know if Tony Blair is still mentioned in it. We don't know for sure. So, this is all a very, very dangerous moment.
....

Continues below... with my comments

[StarryPlough01]

Continues here...

Inside Story ‘How will Donald Trump enforce his plan for Gaza?’

JUMP TO: 11:26 / 27:35

Muhammad Shehada, Political analyst and Visiting Fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations speaking:

.... “If you look at Trump's plan, the 20 points in there. There was an earlier version of the plan that Arab
countries tried to have their input added to it and it was way much better than the one that Trump announced.

Then Netanyahu went and sat down with Steve Witkov and Jared Kushner and edited the plan very heavily to make sure that it lives up to Israel's satisfaction and Israel's alone. And that it includes enough loopholes that would allow Israel to maintain the state of uninhabitability, in Gaza, for many years to come.

So you're seeing basically withdrawal left to the Israelis own discretion when, where, and how they would withdraw if. they withdraw in the first place. In any areas that the IDF is operating in is considered “an extermination zone”. That's the Israeli technical term, which means no civilian is allowed into reconstruction.

Trump said yesterday that it would begin immediately. There's no trace of that starting whatsoever.

You have the exact opposite. Israel literally saying today they are restricting the entry of aid into Gaza and not letting any sort of heavy machinery, bulldozers, trucks, caravans, pre-fabricated homes into Gaza whatsoever. None. zero. And you have the last element with governance in which you have this board of peace that Tony Blair designed the blueprint of. That would give Trump, Blair and other billionaires the ultimate deciding power in Gaza over the legislative, economic powers, even diplomatic representation and legal powers.

They would have the power over land distribution, over Gaza's marine field. That's why in Israel channel 12, there was an article that came out two days ago that said Kushner [Trump’s son-in-law], Larry Ellison, and other billionaires, are planning the future of Gaza as “a tax haven for billionaires”. It would be Panama number two / the Canary Islands. [13:16 / 27:35]


JUMP TO: 21:04 / 27:35

PRESENTER Nick Clark: "Muhammad. Let me bring in the Hamas side of things here because there is an onus on Hamas, isn't there, to fulfill their side of the bargain, to lay down their weapons and so forth. And that's critical, too.

Muhammad Shehada, Political analyst and Visiting Fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations speaking:

Muhammad Shehada: “Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And you are still seeing a Hamas commitment to stepping down from government and handing it over to an administrative committee. You also have a Hamas commitment to decommissioning the offensive weaponry.

“DECOMMISSIONING IS SOMETHING LIKE NORTHERN IRELAND...”

“There's a difference between disarmament and decommissioning. Disarmament is surrender, capitulation. Decommissioning is something like Northern Ireland where it entails a political process. It's gradual. It's coupled with clear time frames, milestones towards ending the Israeli occupation, or even on a more smaller scale towards the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and allowing the Palestinian Authority to return to Gaza.[color]

There is the challenge that even if you convince Hamas's leadership in Doha to disarm or decommission, how would you convince the average militant in Gaza with a weapon to hand over that firearm to the genocidal army that just unleashed a genocide on Gaza?

That's why you have Hamas and and mediators trying to tell the Trump administration, you need the Palestinian Authority in place in Gaza for the weapons to be handed over to it. And that's the offensive weapons, which is mainly the ROCKETS that Hamas doesn't have an abundance of anymore.

If you take even Israel's own statement from a year ago, Netanyahu said Hamas lost over 90% of its rocket arsenal. So there's virtually there's none of it that's left and there's no will to use it in the first place.

But disarmament can become this elusive abstract concept that Israel would use over and over again as an excuse to stay in Gaza and refuse withdrawal. We're already seeing it with Israel Katz [Defence Minister] trying to explicitly say that they are going to let the IDF directly destroy tunnels in Gaza. Although there could be a mechanism for dismantling those tunnels. But when you have an Israeli defence minister saying our troops are going to do it directly,

Israel has been using the tunnels as an excuse. Every time they destroyed a hospital or a university or an entire residential block, they claim that there was a tunnel underneath. So, we're seeing this deja vu play all over again.
....

Starry: Overall, we do need more details about when US will CUT OFF sending munitions to Israel. Is this going to be phased out over a period of time?? I don't see Trump as a saviour for the Palestinians.

Is disarmament meant to be discussed in Second Phase??

A brilliant debate, which is self explanatory...